The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day004.04

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day004.04
Last-Modified: 2000/08/01

.          P-27

   Q.   And does each plate represent one day?
   A.   No.
   Q.   No?
   A.   They just filmed continuously and when one plate ran out,
        they would then put another glass plate in and film the
        next one.  That is why one plate, if you will note on that
        list, is called December 13th and the next plate is called
        December 13th to 14th.
   Q.   Can I ask you -- I will ask you one more question and then
        I will ask you to look at something -- do you know from
        memory -- you do not seem to have a record of it -- how
        many pages the entry for 13th December 1941 was?
   A.   No.
   Q.   All right.  Well, perhaps I can help you.  I do not know.
        It is a possibility.  Could Mr Irving please be given
        bundle H4(ii)?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am afraid I have not got this, Mr Rampton
        I am sorry.  Thank you.
   MR RAMPTON:  Could you turn to a handwritten FN 156?
   A.   156?
   Q.   It is about two-thirds of the way through the file.  It is
        what I call a sideways document.  You have to turn the
        file around in order to read it.
   A.   I have it, yes.
   Q.   It is a German document.  It is headed on the right-hand 
    column on page 487, internal page 487, 13th December in

.          P-28

        German 1941, yes?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Just glance at this.  It runs through -- I think it is the
        whole entry -- to page 501.  These are double pages.  So
        it does not involve turning over a lot of pages.  501 is
        where 14th December starts.  Now, do you recognize this
        printed version?
   A.   I do.  If you look on page FN 156, you find the passage
        that is on my transcript.
   Q.   Sorry?  They are all 156.
   A.   I am sorry.  It is on printed page, on book page 494.  At
        line 283, 282, you see the sentence beginning
         "Nachmittags", "In the afternoon the Fuhrer speaks to the
   Q.   I see that.
   A.   That is the passage which I got.
   Q.   You have got that passage.  But you also got more than
        that, did you not?  Where is your U boat war, your boat
   A.   In that same paragraph.  It continues in that same
        paragraph on printed page 494, book page 494.  It
        continues about the U boat.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  And on the opposite page?
   A.   And on the opposite page.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, I see that, what is puzzling me about this,
        Mr Irving, is this.  I think you translated some of this

.          P-29

        or all of it for the Sunday Times, did you not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Can you turn to page 496?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.  "Dab wir im Osten", that is the last of your typewritten
        German passages, is it not?
   A.   If you say so, yes.
   Q.   Well, it looks the same, does it not?
   A.   Page handwritten 21 of my note?
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   That is correct.
   Q.   That is the same one.  I think that was the last of the
        passages on this day that you translated for the Sunday
        Times, was it not?
   A.   It was all that I had at the time.
   Q.   Yes.  It is all that you brought back with you?
   A.   That is correct, yes.
   Q.   I understood your evidence about that.  Can you turn over?
   A.   498 you probably want, 498.
   Q.   498 has disappeared.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So it was not 30 or 40 pages further on, it
        was two pages further on.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, well, that is----
   A.   My Lord, when you see these pages, it is printed in the
        large, I forget the actual technical name for it, but we
        call it the Fuhrer typewriter, and it is printed with four

.          P-30

        spaces between each line.  He has about 100 words on each
        page, my Lord, so it is very many further pages further
   Q.   Sorry, that is what I was trying to find out.  In my
        version it is very few pages further on.
   A.   In your photocopy of the original facsimile?
   Q.   No, in this printed version it is only ----
   A.   It is only a few pages further on, yes.
   Q.   Three?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But the point is that, apparently, in the
        original diaries it is all very much spread out?
   A.   For your Lordship's amusement, I will bring one page
of it
        to you tomorrow and you can see what it looks like.
   Q.   If anything turns on it, I do not know.
   A.   I think Mr Rampton apprehends that this is a major
        it has been flashed around the world that I was wrong
   Q.   Well, I think you have made the point on Thursday that
        did not actually know it was 30 or 40 pages further on
        because you did not ever read it so you could not
   A.   Now we know, my Lord.
   MR RAMPTON:  This is one thing I am concerned about,
        Mr Irving.  You said, and I will read you your words -
        have you had your transcript ----
   A.   Yes, I have.
   Q.   --- for Thursday?  His Lordship is right.  It was

.          P-31

        something along the lines of 30 or 40 pages further on
        which is just not right, is it?
   A.   What is not right, the exact phrase?
   Q.   I will find the exact words.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is page 153.
   MR RAMPTON:  That is right.  You said:  "Had I read on
        30 or 40 pages in the diary for that day, I would
        have come across the full length description of the
        Gauleiters' speech on which Longerich is relying?
   A.   Absolutely right.  This is probably 30 pages further
        but it shows my guess was absolutely right ----
   Q.   30?
   A.   --- without even having seen it.
   Q.   Tell me, if you will, if you look at -- this is edited
        Elke Frohlich, is it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   But it is not any sense edited by having things
   A.   I do not believe so, no.
   Q.   It is a continuous text?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, is there much mileage in this
        because I think the next day, I mean the next page,
        I asked, "How do you know it is 30 or 40 pages further
        on?" and he makes clear that he did not know it was,
        he had a glass plate with 45 pages on it and it was on
        that, so it must have been on the next one?
   A.   It would have been 25 pages on that one, my Lord --
no, 48

.          P-32

        single pages.
   MR RAMPTON:  Is this glass plate that you transcribed, or
        of it, the only one for that date that you looked at?
   A.   Well, this is the reason why I provided you over the
        weekend with a list of the actual pages that we looked
        the actual glass plates.
   Q.   Yes, but do you understand there is a difference -- I
        you do -- between what you transcribed and what you
   A.   We looked at all the glass plates.
   Q.   You did?
   A.   Quite simply to establish an inventory.  I looked
        every single glass plate in the 1500 glass plates with
        this magnifier, established from the title line across
        top what period was covered, put a yellow post-it on
        glass side, not the emulsion side, of each plate
        indicating what date it was.
   Q.   So you will have read the passage that Longerich
   A.   You did not hear what I said.  On the top of every
        on the top of every plate there was a title line
        in handwriting saying the dates, the actual dates
        by that plate, like 13th to 14th December 1941.  You
        not have to look actually at the individual pages.
        I could see straightaway and say this is 13th to 14th
        December 1941, it is already out of our period of

.          P-33

        because we were looking at Pearl Harbour.
   Q.   How did you make your selection if you did not read
        whole thing?
   A.   Time made the selection for us.  We knew we were only
        there for a limited length of days.  We had a flight
        come back to England.  You had to make judgment
        and say, well, Pearl Harbour was December 7th 1941, we
        already on December 13th, my commission from the
        Times was to get material relating to Pearl Harbour.
        had already read as much as I considered was
        Had I known that later on in the same entry he would
        gone on about the Fuhrer talking to the Gauleiters at
        greater length, I might have gone on, but you cannot
   Q.   You have answered my question, I think, which is that
        did not read it at the time?
   A.   That is correct, and it was not before me at the time.
        Even now, to buy these diaries, you have to lay out
        than 1,000.  So it is quite an expensive task.  I
        now purchased them, but they have only just been
   Q.   While you have that out, can I ask you a little word
        something you said on Thursday?  I think you told us,
        you look at the passage quoted in Longerich, yes?
   A.   The passage quoted in?
   Q.   Well, the passage quoted by Longerich is at the bottom

.          P-34

        page 498 of the Frohlich edition?
   A.   Yes, "In connection with the Jewish question, the
        has decided to make tabula rasa".
   Q.   Yes, and then it goes on, "He prophesized to the Jews
        if they began yet another World War, they would
        bring about their own destruction", roughly speaking?
   A.   It is a crude translation, yes.
   Q.   He is reporting there, is he not, either something
        said to the Gauleiters on 12th December, or he is
        reminding himself of what Hitler said on 30th January?
   A.   January.
   Q.   1939 in the ----
   A.   You cannot tell from this particular quotation.
   Q.   You cannot, can you?
   A.   It is the old gramaphone record that Hitler played
        and again.
   Q.   Yes, indeed.  Then you say, well, you know from that
        on, I think, "Das ist keine Phrase gewesen", that
        are no longer Hitler's words because it is in direct
   A.   It is in direct speech, yes.
   Q.   So is the first sentence, is it not?  "Bezuglich der
        Judenfrage ist der Fuhrer entschlossen"?
   A.   Yes, that is correct.
   Q.   That is also in direct speech?
   A.   He uses direct speech.

.          P-35

   Q.   He is reporting that, so far as the Jewish question is
        concerned, the Fuhrer is determined to make a clean
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Yes.  That is direct speech, is it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   If you look over to the other side of the page, the
        complete paragraph, the first sentence of the first
        complete paragraph, "Im Osten sieht der Fuhrer
        unser kommendes Indien" is in reported speech, is it
   A.   No.
   Q.   No?
   A.   It would be in "osten siehe der Fuhrer", S-I-E-H-E,
        be reported speech, that would be the subjunctive.
   Q.   That is fine.  The next sentence is also in direct
        is it not?
   A.   That is direct speech.
   Q.   And so is the next sentence, is it not?
   A.   That is correct, yes.
   Q.   And the next one, well, this is in the past in the
        that he is reporting that the Germans have overrun and
        settled in the past?
   A.   The whole paragraph is in direct speech.
   Q.   It is, is it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And do you say that those are Goebbels' private
        and not a report of what Hitler said?

.          P-36

   A.   He is reporting in his own words what Hitler's
        and intentions are.
   Q.   Precisely.  So would you care to withdraw your
        of Dr Longerich for putting what is in direct speech
        Hitler's mouth?
   A.   Are you not referring to the same passage, Mr Rampton?
   Q.   No, but it is all part of the same two paragraphs.
   A.   No, the specific allegation that you made was that
        Longerich was quoting Hitler when, in fact, he was
        Goebbels which is my comment.
   Q.   How can you tell that the first paragraph on the
        right-hand side is not also just Goebbels quoting
   A.   We can refer back to the specific sentence that was the
        subject of your complaint, because we have now moved on to
        a different paragraph and you are trying to ----

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