Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day003.10 Last-Modified: 2000/07/29 Q. I agree with you, I think it has verisimilitude for what it matters. It is an horrendous account of an unpleasant -- more than an unpleasant event in human history. That is not what I am interested in. Given that it has verisimilitude, if you look in the middle of page 22, one of the things that Bruns was overheard saying to whoever he was speaking to was this, middle of the page: "I told that fellow Altemeyer?" In fact, Altemeyer, whose name I shall always remember and who will be added to the list of war criminals, listen to me they [that is Jews] represent valuable manpower. Altemeyer: Do you call Jews valuable human beings, sir? I [that is Bruns said] Listen to me properly, I said valuable manpower, I did not mention their value as human beings. He said [Altemeyer said] Well, they are to be shot in accordance with the Fuhrer's orders! I said: Fuhrer's orders? He said, yes, whereupon he showed me his orders." Now that has never appeared in any of your books, has it? A. Too true, yes, absolutely right. . P-83 Q. Why not? A. I discounted it. Q. Why? A. Because I am familiar with other sources where people claim to be acting on Hitler's orders because it was the ready answer to shut anybody up if somebody came and complained then the senior officer or the other officer would say: "Do not start criticising me, this is the Fuhrer's orders", and I discounted the subsequent sentence about "then he showed it to me" for exactly the same reason that I discounted the statement at Nuremberg that Eichmann claimed that the -- rather Wisliceny claimed that Eichmann had showed him the orders. There are no orders. They have not been found. We have now been in the archives, in and out of the archives of the world for the last 50 years, since the end of World War II, 55 years and no primary or secondary or tertiary evidence of the existence of these orders has been found as regards the war years. I concede that in interrogations and in War Crimes Trials and elsewhere everyone else is happy to talk about Fuhrer's orders but the fact remains had there been any such order or any such document, and you are tapping this one, this is what I will put in the category of "interrogations", had there been any such order, it would have surfaced by now. . P-84 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You put this in the category of "interrogations", did you say? A. It is at the end of war, my Lord, he is in the enemy hands. Q. He is being surreptitiously... A. I appreciate that, my Lord, but it is in a grey area. He is in the enemy's power and custody and I draw attention to the line a bit earlier up where he says: "His name I shall always also remember and who will be added to the list of war criminals". That is a gentle hint to me that perhaps he is not entirely unaware that somebody may be listening. MR RAMPTON: What do you know -- A. You must appreciate that, my Lord. MR RAMPTON: What do you know General Bruns? A. -- what do I know of him? Q. What do you know of him, yes. A. Only what I know from this document and from the writings of Gerald Fleming. I suppose we would describe him now as been an anti-Nazi by the time the war ended, but then a lot of people were anti-Nazi by the time the war ended. Q. --- what if they happened to be an anti-Nazi all along, there were such people in German during the 1940s, were there not. A. Undoubtedly, yes. Q. Quite a lot of the ordinary army, I am not talking about . P-85 the SS, who are not army at all, really, were anti- Nazi? A. Is this the evidence that you are leading, I am not familiar with any statistical basis for that. Q. I am suggesting you could give me the answer "yes"? A. I have not seen any documentary evidence of that. I do not think GALLUP Polls are conducted among the Wehrmacht soldiers who still support Adolf. I always want to see this kind of evidence and if I can just -- if I can just add here we have got very high quality evidence of the morale and opinions of the Germans. We have the SD stinnungsberichge, which were the morale reports where Gestapo agents would hang around in bars listening to what people said. We have sacks and sacks of captured mail, captured by the Allies when a troop ship were caught or when positions were overrun. We know exactly what these people were writing. So we are very well informed about what was going on. I have never seen any kind of statistical analysis. Q. If this is not an interrogation, which it plainly is not? A. Yes. Q. And if General Bruns does not know that he is being recorded, and if it be the case that he simply is chatting to his fellow prisoners in German, which he is, am I right? A. While you just read that, may I just add a further point, we are dealing here with a 22 year old young man called . P-86 Altemeyer who has been put in SS uniform. Q. I am sorry, Mr Irving, there are times when you may make speeches and times when you must answer my questions, this is one of them; you said yesterday, no, I think this is on Day One? A. I will come back to what I was about to say when you have finished. Q. "This document has, in my submission, considerable evidentiary values... it is not self-serving, the General is not testifying in his own interest, he is merely talking, probably in a muffled whisper to fellow prisoners at a British interrogation centre and he has no idea that in another room British experts are listening to and recording every word. We also have the original German text of this document. I might add my, Lord ... " MR JUSTICE GRAY: That, I think, was Mr Irving's speech. MR RAMPTON: That is Mr Irving's speech. That is on page 46 -- A. Can I make it easy for you, Mr Rampton, and say I accept Altemeyer did say those words. Q. -- right. A. Or as best as Bruns recalls them. Q. The whole of Bruns' account in this regard has the ring of truth then? A. Yes. Q. So it is likely also then, is it, one cannot be certain, one was not there. . P-87 A. It is very likely that the SS officer concerned used those words. Q. It is likely also he used the words at the end of this extract on the bottom of page 24 of your opening: "Here is an order, just issued, prohibiting mass shootings on that scale from taking place in future" -- A. Have we now left that previous passage, if so -- Q. -- I am coming back to it, but I want to try and be consistent, if you are saying that we can believe that Altemeyer used the words in the first passage, can we also believe that Altemeyer said this: "Here is an order, just used, prohibiting mass shootings on that scale from taking place in future"? A. -- that I believe. Q. "They are to be carried out more discreetly." A. That I attach less credibility to. Q. Why? A. It is the kind of throw away line that soldiers would use, particularly in captivity, adding a gag, looking for a bit of a snigger from someone, saying not to be done on a mass shooting, of course, has to be done a bit more discreetly. If I can draw a comparison, you very rightly read out a passage of a speech I made in Calgary where I protested that I had been called a mild fascist by the newspapers and I said I do not like that word "mild" it is a throw away line, you are looking for a laugh. . P-88 Q. I do not -- A. You then attach great weight to the fact Mr Irving obviously accepts he is fascist, which is untrue. But these things happen in conversation, Mr Rampton. It calls for judgment and integrity before you use any particular part of a sentence. Q. -- no, you misjudge me, Mr Irving, you should re-read what I actually said and you will find what you just said is a misrecollection. However, that matters not in the slightest. A. Can I now go back to the previous part you are relying on in that, where he says "here are the Fuhrer's orders" and he showed it to me. Q. He did not say that. He said "whereupon --" this is important, Mr Irving, you must be accurate, this is an important distinction: "Whereupon he showed me his orders"? MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is Bruns speaking, not Bruns quoting Altemeyer? A. Altemeyer says, well, they are to be shot in accordance with the Fuhrer's orders, Bruns said: Fuhrer's orders? Yes, says Altemeyer, whereupon he showed me his orders. MR RAMPTON: His orders? A. Yes. Q. That does not mean the Fuhrer's orders, that means Altemeyer's orders? . P-89 A. I am grateful to you for drawing that to my attention. If you wish to infer from that that he showed to Bruns orders from Hitler, or orders quoting orders from Hitler, because he later on talks about the Fuhrer's orders, can I now comment on that? Q. I am not going to comment on a suggestion I have not - - I am not going to invite you to comment on a suggestion I have not made. A. May I nevertheless comment? Q. No, Mr Irving, you may not. If his Lordship permits it, why, yes. My question is a completely different one; my question is this, it is credible that Altemeyer said what he is here reported as having said? A. Yes. Q. It is also credible, is it not, that he showed Bruns a written order saying that these people were to be shot? A. Yes. Q. Good, thank you very much. Put those two things together, and there is evidence here which needs to be taken into account; do you agree? A. Discounted or taken into account, yes. Q. Take into account, brought to the attention of the public or the historians so that they can make up their own minds whether or not this is evidence of a Fuhrer order for these shootings? A. You are absolutely right . . P-90 Q. Thank you. A. Can I continue? Q. Yes. A. I have done precisely that. Q. Where? A. On my website. Q. Yes, but what about your books? A. I am not writing books about the Holocaust, Mr Rampton, I am writing books about Adolf Hitler. The book is already 1,000 pages long. If I was to start going into that detail then I would be sternly reprimanded by the editors saying, Mr Irving, when I wrote the Hermann Goring biography, the American publishers came to me and said Mr Irving will you please cut out 2,000 lines from the printed text. This happens. We do not have a problem that our books are too short, we have the problem that our books are too long. Q. Yes. Mr Irving -- A. But the entire document is on the Internet and I am the one who placed it there. Q. -- Mr Irving, you have made reference to this Bruns testimony in your published books? A. As I said in my opening speech, again and again, it is the most harrowing account and element of the Holocaust. Q. But without ever mentioning either of these verbal exchanges in their entirety? . P-91 A. Absolutely right. Q. Why not? A. Because this is descending into a level of textual analysis which would bore the pant off an audience, which would be totally out of place in a book about Adolf Hitler for which I am perfectly prepared to discuss here in court if you attach importance to you, but you do not want me to discuss it. Q. I am not trying to prove a case about Adolf Hitler one way or the other? A. But you will not allow me to discuss it here. Q. Of course I allow you discuss it here. A. You stopped me. Q. I interested in why it makes no appearance -- A. Because I have reasons for discounting it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Discounting bits of it I suppose would be more accurate. A. -- I am discounting the bit about being shown the Fuhrer's order, or being shown orders implicating Hitler. MR RAMPTON: Why do you discount it? A. Ah, at last. Because other evidence shows that Hitler had not issued the order; firstly I said that nowhere in all the documentation of all the world's archives has any such order turned up.
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