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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day002.08

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day002.08
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

.                                      P-165

   A.   My Lord, there are copies made.  I had all this bundle
        ready to be produced tomorrow.
   MR RAMPTON:  Can I help?
   A.   Because of the importance ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think Mr Rampton knows where it is.
   MR RAMPTON:  I do not know if it is he same document.  From
        wording I very much suspect it is, but on page 353 of
        Professor Evans' report at paragraph 6 ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Professor who?
   MR RAMPTON:  Professor Evans page 353, paragraph 6, he has
        quotation from a document:  "The Jews have been
        out of the territory of the "Ouslander" (?) only to be
        dealt with in accordance with guidelines issued by me
        the Reich Security Head Office on my authority.  I
        punish individual initiatives and contraventions.
        Signed H. Himmler", and it is annotated as being
        to Joachim, 1st December 1941 at 7.30 p.m. in the
        Record Office HW16/32.
   A.   That is correct.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is the same document.
   A.   Does he also have the following message, let me ask
        Mr Rampton, where he instructs Joachim to report to
        headquarters immediately?
   MR RAMPTON:  I do not have that document.
   A.   Clearly the significance of that is even more
        than this rap on the knuckles about the arbitrary

.                                      P-166

        reactions and acting against authority and disobeying
        guidelines.  On December 1st, the day after the
        the same day as these telegrams, here is in Himmler's
        handwriting a telephone call at 1315 to SS General
        Heinrich about the executions in Riga which everybody
        agrees is referring to this appalling atrocity where
        Jews had been shot into the pits.  The significant
        is, as all the historians on both sides now agree,
        from that time on the killing of German Jews stopped
        many months.  The fact that this instruction had come
        the first instance from Hitler's bunker and on the
        following day from Heinrich Himmler who had been to
see to
        Hitler who sends him a message that I would describe
        "panic stricken" to General Joachim saying "any
        actions of this nature, any arbitrary actions against
        guidelines, will be severely punished and you are
        to report to Hitler's headquarters", is a matter which
        I think is so serious that this is the reason why I
        preparing a very detailed bundle on it, my Lord, with
        complete facsimiles and translations for your
        attention, because it goes very closely to the central
        issues in this case:  How far was Hitler personally
        involved and what were his intentions?
   Q.   In relation to the shooting?
   A.   Of European Jews as opposed to Russian Jews.
   Q.   Yes, but in relation to death by shooting.

.                                      P-167

   A.   And also in relation to my contention, as your
        will be aware, that there is a chain of documents of
        varying magnitudes of integrity and weight which
        that Hitler was a negative force in this matter,
        there are no comparable documents indicating the
        opposite.  I know it is barely credible, but if one
        to this with a open mind and then 20 years later one
        across yet another document like this extraordinary
        British intercept, this decode of the SS message from
        Himmler to the man on the spot who had done the
        saying any further such actions will be subject to
        punishment and ordering him to report to Hitler's
        headquarters. It is an extraordinary episode and I
find it
        also highly significant that the German historians
have so
        far not been prepared to refer to this episode with a
        single line as far as its significance is concerned,
        because they are mortally terrified under the
        of the new laws passed in Germany.  It has been the
        foreign historians, like myself, who have drawn
        to this exchange of documents.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Your case really, as I understand it,
        that particular example of the transport from Berlin
        demonstrates what you say was Hitler's role in
relation to
   A.   My Lord, it is one indication.  It is not the only
        evidence that I rely upon, my Lord.

.                                      P-168

   Q.   No, that is what I meant by "demonstrate",
        is a better word?
   A.   I am careful there, because when I introduced in my
        previous book, the November 30 handwritten annotation
        Himmler, my opponent said, "this is his only evidence,
        this is what he relies on", and it was not, I had
        My Lord, we shall be hearing at a later stage in these
        proceedings Dr John Fox, who is an expert, among other
        things, on these police decodes, and I shall be asking
        him, with your Lordship's permission, the condition of
        these decodes and are they wall to wall?  Is
        there, or are there gaps?  If one finds an item like
        of course, it is a nugget, one is not entitled to
        to find it, but one find it and here it is, suddenly
        our faces, you cannot ignore it.  There are several
        documents like that, my Lord.
   Q.   Well, I was going to invite you to perhaps pass on now
        from the shootings of the Jews and to skip section 3,
        which is the Leuchter Report?
   A.   While I am in full flood can I move on to another
        document just three months later?
   Q.   Yes, of course.
   A.   After the Danzig Conference, which was an
        conflict on the executive measures for the Final
        whatever it was, there was a lot of paperwork in 199 -
   Q.   In 1942?

.                                      P-169

   A.   In 1942, the Danzig Conference was held on January
        1942, my Lord.  After the Danzig Conference the
        engaged in a lot of paperwork, and at one stage the
        necessity was ventilated of bringing up this matter
        Adolf Hitler, whatever the Final Solution was, the
        Ministry of Justice began to get uneasy about it,
        they could see it had ugly connotations; there were
        illegalities being adumbrated, and the head of the
        Civil Service, Dr Hans Lammers, who was a minister, a
        Reich minister, telephoned the head of the German
        of Justice, whose name was Schlegelberger, we shall be
        hearing quite a bit about the Schlegelberger document
        in this telephone conversation which Schlegelberger
        a minute on, or what a lawyer would probably call an
        "attendance note", Lammers said "the Fuhrer", Adolf
        Hitler, "the Fuhrer", Adolf Hitler, "has repeatedly
        he wants the solution of the Jewish problem postponed
        after until the war is over".  This is a document that
        caused my opponents immense difficulties.  The
        difficulties they solved initially by pretending it
        not exist, by which I mean they did not quote it.
        did not adduce it in their history books, and when
        thorn in the flesh, David Irving, kept on reminding
        of existence of this document, which tripped them up
        whatever their hypotheses were, that is when the real
        battle began, the skirmishing began.  But I think your

.                                      P-170

        Lordship will appreciate that I am entitled to point
        that document as being another document in that chain
        evidence, unless of course I have deliberately
        mistranslated it, or misconstrued it.
   Q.   No, I do not think that is suggested.
   A.   Yes, but it is clearly a very important document. A
        wartime document written by a lawyer on a phone call
        the head of the German Civil Service, who is the next
        up to Adolf Hitler, saying the Fuhrer has repeatedly
        he wants the solution of the Jewish problem postponed
        until after the war was over, which was typical Adolf
        Hitler, anything like that he wanted put on the back
        burner he had fought this ghastly war through. There
        several problems like that, the church problem was
   Q.   What was Schlegelberger's position?
   A.   He was at that time, as I understand it, Secretary of
        State, which is the equivalent of a permanent Under
        Secretary in a British ministry. In the Ministry of
        Justice, his Minister was Dr Franz Goertner, who I
        had died recently at that time, so he was effectively
        charge of the Ministry, Schlegelberger, and the minute
        wrote was directed to a few notorious names including
        Rowland Friessler.  It is quite an interesting
        and interesting about the document, my Lord, is at the
        time of the Nuremberg trials it vanished.  It remained

.                                      P-171

        original in the Ministry files, but the photocopies
        provided to the lawyers at Nuremberg, this
        document, vanished.  It was not there, and it gave me
        lot of trouble locating the original eventually.
   Q.   Yes.  Would you like to pass on now, do you accept
        the Leuchter report is plainly part and parcel of the
        Auschwitz issue?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I think that must be right.  Then the next section in
        Defendant's summary of case, which is --
   A.   The Leuchter Report, of course, exists in two
        incarnations, my Lord. The original Leuchter Report
was an
        affidavit drawn up as an expert report for the
        courts and what we published was a glossy version
        truncated and streamlined.
   Q.   -- but it was basically the same?
   A.   Made the same allegations and on the same contentions.
   Q.   We will leave that on one side, shall we.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I can see it comes in in some other context.  Then
        is a heading called "Historiography", this is really
        section where there are a whole series of detailed
        criticisms made of you, it being alleged that you have
        skewed documents and generally behaved in a --
   A.   Reprehensible --
   Q.   -- disreputable way as a historian in your treatment

.                                      P-172

        the evidence.  Now it is up to you how you deal with
        you can either deal with it generally, or you can make
        some specific points on the instances that are cited
        against you?
   A.   -- well, the general statement I would say is Mandy
        Rice-Davies, they have to say this, my Lord, they
        say, would they not?  My opponents, who I could also
        categorise as my rivals, dislike the fact that I get
        the documents before them.  For 30 years I have been
        one to dig out the diaries.
                  By way of a general remark I would say I
        I would visit the widows and obtain the papers, not
        because I was more industrious than them, but purely
        because I took the trouble.  I visited the widow of
        Secretary Anstrom Wiedsecher, who had been
        State Secretary. She was Baroness Marianne von
        who was subsequently the mother of the State President
        Germany, President von Wiedsecher and it turned out
        she had all her husband's diaries and letters, which
        made available to me, and was rather puzzled that she
        not made them available to the German historians and
        reply was, "Mr Irving, they never asked".  It was the
        with very many other historians -- many other
        sources.  Purely by virtue of visiting the widows or
        of kin or digging around I have obtained these diaries
        private papers.

.                                      P-173

   Q.   But leaving aside digging out the evidence.
   A.   Well, this generated the envy and jealousy which is
        unfortunately what has fuelled lot of the criticism.
   Q.   I hear you say that, but what about the criticism of
        use that you make the evidence once you have got it
        because what is said against you is that you pick and
   A.   My Lord, this is almost certainly something which can
        be dealt with on piecemeal basis, they will put
        documents to me in cross-examination and to their
        I may occasionally concede that, yes, I got something
        wrong.  I will concede that I misread the word
"harbun" in
        Himmler's appalling handwriting, and if you were to
have a
        look at his handwriting you will see how very similar
        is.  I will provide the documents to your Lordship
        tomorrow to the alternative word.  This kind of thing
   Q.   Well, if I may say so, I think you are right that this
        particular topic has to be dealt with on a ...
   A.   Piecemeal basis.
   Q.   Well, case by case basis, I think that is it probably
        right, but if you want to say anything more generally at
        the moment about your --

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