Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day026.10 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 MR RAMPTON: Do you know of any evidence -- this is getting a little bit of ahead of myself but I may as well deal with this part of it first -- Dr Longerich, whether eyewitness testimony or contemporaneous documents, whether clear or needing interpretation, that speak of large scale transports or deportations of Jews from the occupied Eastern territories further East? A. At this stage, no. Q. As a matter of practical reality, is there any evidence that it happened? A. No. Q. Do you take this document to be an indication that Himmler found the -- I think I have asked this already -- the administrative task of, I do not know how many Jews that . P-85y there were left in the occupied Eastern territories by this date, do you? A. Definitely several hundred thousand. Q. Right, presumably, they have got to go -- how Far East had the German Army got by this date? A. Well, this was in summer 1942, they were in their, I think just started their summer offensive so they were quite, I mean, advanced, so they had large parts of Ukrainia, for instance, under their control. Q. And they were pushing out as far as Koursk and Stalingrad, were they not? A. Yes. Q. In due course? A. Yes. Q. So there would have been plenty of room behind them to which to transport all the remaining Jews of the occupied Eastern territories, would there not? A. Yes. Q. But you know of no evidence that it ever happened? A. No. Q. Can we compare for a moment what Himmler wrote in that letter about the very difficult order that the Fuhrer had laid on his shoulders with what Mr Irving relies on as evidence of the truth, the historical truth, which is what Karl Wolff told Dr , I cannot remember, was it Fiegler or Ziegler? . P-86 A. Ziegler. Q. Ziegler? A. Ziegler, sorry. Q. Von Ziegler in 1952. Have you still got that German of that document ---- A. I hope so. Q. --- with you? It is on page 5 of the German and, my Lord, it is the fifth page of the English under the square bracket 00032. Do you mind if I use the English of Mr Irving? A. No, I do not have the -- I could not find the... Q. You do not have the document. I am sorry. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where are we going to put this? MR RAMPTON: Day 2, tab 11, my Lord. 14A the page number is. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That will do. MR RAMPTON: It is one of the documents that was passed up this morning, I think. It is only short. In your German version, Dr Longerich, it is the second paragraph on page 5 with page numbers at the top. It is the sentence which begins "es war im August 1942". Do you have that? Page 5 at the top or 00032 at the bottom. A. Sorry, the German sentence begins? Q. The German sentence begins "es war im August 1942". A. Yes, I have the German sentence. Q. Have you got that? A. Yes. . P-87 Q. Do you mind if I read out the English? A. No. Q. But do follow it in the German because you can check the translation at the same time if you want. "Around August 942 GW", that is? A. General Wolff. Q. General Wolff, yes, I thought his name was Karl, I must say, "... General Wolff undertook drive from the Fuhrer's headquarters to Berlin. He found Himmler there in a state of deep depression. To General Wolff's questions as to what was up, Hitler dropped dark and vague hints. Wolff could have no idea what one had had to take upon oneself for the Messiah of the next 2000 years" -- we can say that is Hitler, can we not? A. Yes. Q. "... in order that this man remained personally free of sin. He, the Reichsfuhrer, was beyond mortal help. For the sake of the German people and its Fuhrer, he had had to burden things on to his own shoulders of which nobody must ever be allowed to learn". If you have to choose between a postwar interrogation of Karl Wolff, which resulted in that account, and the letter which Heinreich Himmler wrote to Berger at the time in 1942, which source do you prefer? A. I would prefer contemporary documents like this source. Q. Then, finally, there is one other document in here that . P-88 I would like you to look at. It is the next document on from the Himmler to Berger in the main blue file? MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is part of the same sequence, Mr Rampton, is it? MR RAMPTON: It is, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Because I want to ask something after you have finished. MR RAMPTON: Absolutely. Then I am coming to the Furl letter in a moment. Do you see that this is some kind of a copy of a letter written by somebody called Guntzen Muller to Karl Wolff on the same day, 28th July 1942, is it? A. Yes, that it is in front of me. Q. Does it recount that 5,000 Jews are going every day from Warsaw to Treblinka and twice a week 5,000 from a place whose name I cannot pronounce, it is something like "Schimmel" to Belzec? A. Premisul(?) to Belzec, yes. Q. To Belzec. So that is a total of 45,000 a week, you can take it from me, at that time. That has been going on, has it not, since 22nd July 1942? Yes? A. Yes, this is clear from this letter. Q. Then does the last part of the letter tell us that in due time, I think in October, transports will go from Warsaw via Lublin to Sobibor? A. Yes. Q. Yes. They do not tell us in what quantities, do they? . P-89 A. No, because they are just working on the track, on the railway track. Q. On the track, yes. The transports are held up from the track. But assume for a moment that that little collection of documents is evidence of a massive extermination programme underway at the General Government and in the occupied Eastern territories, that Himmler is in charge of it, and we have seen the contacts between Himmler and Hitler during this time. How credible does it seem to you that Hitler, Himmler's old chum, Hitler, did not know what was going on? A. Well, I find this absolutely incredible that he should not have known that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask you a question because I am a bit puzzled at the moment. Your evidence is that the order that Hitler gave Himmler related to the Jews in the Ostgebiet? A. Yes. Q. And they accounted for, I think you said, about 600,000 out of about two and a half million? A. Yes. Q. The thing that is slightly going through my mind at the moment is, well, that leaves a bit of question mark over the remaining, whatever it is, 1.9 million. A. Sorry, you are referring to? Q. To the Jews who were in the General Government? . P-90 A. Yes. Q. But not in the Eastern territories? A. Yes. Q. What was the position, as far as they were concerned? Is there any evidence one way or the other? A. I am sorry. I am not sure whether I could follow the question. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think you have not followed the question. Perhaps I did not put it very clear. MR RAMPTON: My Lord, perhaps I could deal with it? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, all right, do. MR RAMPTON: Undoubtedly I see the question that your Lordship has asked. Himmler's letter to Berger deals with the Jews in the occupied Eastern territories, in other words, Russia? A. Yes. Q. And they have to be cleared by the end of the year? A. Yes. Q. These trains which we are talking about here in the letter from Guntz Muller to Wolff are not Russian Jews at all? A. No, this is the Generalgouvernement, Poland. Q. This is the General government? A. Yes. Q. And they are going variously in, one might think, rather large numbers from Warsaw, this place Premisul, and so on and so forth, to the three Reinhardt camps? . P-91 A. Yes. Q. Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor, are they not? A. Yes. Q. My question is where were they going? A. Well, they would be deported to these camps, to the extermination camps, and would be killed there. Q. Do you know of any evidence that any of those three camps was at any time a work camp? A. No, this is particularly, these were particular extermination camps, very small camps, only one purpose, to kill as many people as possible in a very short time. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That does not though actually quite meet the point that I was trying to put. I will try again. MR RAMPTON: I am sorry. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, it does partially. We are concerned in this aspect of the case really very much with what Hitler knew and authorized. You have been taken through a series of documents which you have given evidence establishes to your satisfaction at least that Hitler did order Himmler to free the Ostgebiet of Jews by, as Mr Rampton says, the end of December 1942. My question really related to the vastly greater number of Jews who were at that time in the area of the General Government, and what I was really seeking to ask you is do you have any knowledge of any documents or are there any inferences that one can draw as to what Hitler . P-92 said, if anything, about what was to be the fate of the Jews in the General Government? A. We do not have the same document for the General Government. We have this document for the 28th July, but not a comparable document for the Jews of the Generalgouvernement. So we are relying here on a construction, a reconstruction, of events and, as Mr Rampton has, I think, lead me through these documents, it is clear that we have a number of important meetings between Himmler and Hitler, and right after these meetings Hitler, sorry, Himmler gave the order to make the Generalgouvernement of Judenfrager until the end of the year. So we do not have the same kind of documentation for the Generalgouvernement. MR IRVING: My Lord, there is, of course, the 22nd September 1942 handwritten document, "Judenfrage dies wie wir weiterfahren", how shall we continue, "Auswanderung", the Himmler and Hitler plan, 108. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I appreciate you say they were going to be dealt with differently, but, I mean, can I ask the question that was in my mind anyway to ask, which is would you think that it is a legitimate inference or not from the fact that there was an expressed Hitler order in relation to the Jews in the Ostgebiet that may be the position was in some way different with regards to the Jews who were to the West of them? . P-93 A. No, we only have this, we have this reference by Himmler by chance because he wrote this letter to Berger. We have not, we have not got the full correspondence of Himmler, so it is impossible to answer this question really. MR IRVING: The note I referred to is page 274 of this blue bundle. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you. MR RAMPTON: I do not want to be -- for once in my life, I will not be diverted if it is all right. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was not intended to be a diversion. MR RAMPTON: No, no, no, by Mr Irving, I meant. It was not intended as a diversion, of course not, but I will not go to that document at the moment. MR IRVING: I was trying to be helpful. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I meant that was not intended to be a diversion by me which you may or may not accept.
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