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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts/day022.22


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day022.22
Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

MR RAMPTON:  No, but if they are emigrating from, let us say,
France to a death camp in Poland, it is perfectly logical.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Was that happening at this time, Professor Evans?

.  P-198

A.Yes.
Q.European Jews?
A.Yes.
Q.What one might call non-German European Jews?
A.September 1942.
MR IRVING:  But it might perfectly well be somebody saying,
"Well, why don't we have them all sent to French North
Africa", because at that time that had not been invaded,
Operation Torch had not happened.
A.I find that somewhat unlikely, Mr Irving ----
Q.All that I am looking at ----
A.--- in view of the fact there is this mass extermination
going on in the area, for which Globocnik was responsible
at this very time.  The fact it was discussed with
Globocnik quite clearly means that this part of the
package of things that was discussed, if have the man who
is actually responsible for this involved.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Was Globocnik involved in transportation as
opposed to extermination?
A.He was the Police Chief for the area, so he was
involved
in all of these things.
Q.So he was both.
A.Yes.
MR IRVING:  He was obviously involved in the resettlement of
the Lublin district, as is shown by the reference in this
connection.

.  P-199

A.Yes, bringing these people in.
Q.I will just ask the question once more.  Have you seen the
word "auswandern" used anywhere as a euphemism where it is
clearly so, used as camouflage, on any other occasion?
A.I do not recall it having been, that does not mean to
say
it is not so used, but, as I say, they used a whole
variety of euphemisms.
Q.We will very rapidly turn the page, and 10th December,
we
now have the abshafen of the Jews from France.
A.Yes.
Q.We have dealt with this.  I am just going to look, not
at
the numbers here, but do you agree the figures of 600
to
700,000 are not accurate for France as far as Jews are
concerned?
A.No, because I think this probably included the French
colonies.
Q.How would the Germans get their hands on the Jews in
the
French colonies?
A.You just said that they were thinking about sending
Jews
to Madagascar.  That is one of them.
Q.Are you familiar with the fact that on 8th November
1942
the first major Anglo-American amphibious invasion
operation had taken place and that the French North of
West Africa was the target of that, and so there had
been
a major change in the geographical situation before
this
conference took place?

.  P-200



A.That is right.  Just before this conference, a few
weeks
before South of France was occupied by axis troops.
This
is at a point when the transports of Jews from France
had
already begun.  It began in the early Spring 1942
directly
to Auschwitz and carried on through the Summer.  About
13,000 Jews were arrested in Paris in July.
Transports
then began from the Vichy region.  The background to
this
is the fact that they have now got control over the
whole
of France and they are not reliant on the Vichy
government
any more.  So in the following February more
transports in
considerable number began to Auschwitz and Sobibor.
Q.Very briefly, you will find on those two pages of
December
10th 1942 that two words were used for how the Jews
were
going be moved on disposed of:  Abshafen on one
document
in Himmler's handwriting, and in the typed memorandum
he
then says they are going to be abtransportiered?
A.Yes.
Q.Would you like to tell the court what your conclusions
are
from the use of those two words?
A.This first document is just Himmler's own private
note, is
that right?
Q.Yes.
A.The second one is a document for circulation.
Q.Is the typed version which then was generated after
that?
A.Yes.  So he is, in other words, using a euphemism in
the
document that has to be circulated, and being more

.  P-201



explicit in his own notes.
Q.How would you translate "abshafen?
A.  " Abolish.
Q.To dismiss, to abolish and to remove, is that right?
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think you accepted earlier on that did
mean
liquidate, Mr Irving.
MR IRVING:  No, my Lord, not necessarily.
MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving's translation is no more helpful,
except
of course than perhaps "abolish".  He accepted, it is
somewhere in one of his books, the translation
"dispose
of".
MR IRVING:  Yes.
MR RAMPTON:  I do not know about in German, but in English
it
is difficult to apply that to people, unless it has an
entirely sinister sense.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think that may be what I had in mind.
MR IRVING:  If we then go to the next document, the third
document in this series which is dated just December
1942,
you agree that here Himmler is contacting Muller and
saying there is going to be a special camp set up to
house
valuable Jews from France and other nationalities, is
that
right?
A.Yes, this is a scheme, is an order by Himmler that
Hungarian, Romanian and French Jews stay together, all
those who have influential relations in America should
be
put in a special camp, and he sees a number of about

.  P-202



10,000 for this special camp of the wealthy Jews from
these three countries who have influential relations
in
America.  They have got to work there, but he adds the
unusual condition that they have to work under
conditions
which keep them alive and healthy.
Q.Yes.
A.Good for him.  So it is a rather different matter.
Yes,
that is what it says.
Q.Because I am sure when we come to be questioned about
the
Kinna document we are going to find out that the Jews
were
regarded as being a less preservable species in camps,
were they not?  There was less importance attached to
keeping them alive?
A.Yes, this is a very special category of a rather small
minority.  One would guess maybe that this document
came
before the outbreak of war with America.  It is
difficult
it say, but this is the hostage idea again I think.
Q.Yes, this document is December 1942, is it not?
A.Yes.  There is no day though on it.
Q.Yes.
A.There is no day.  It is just the month, my Lord.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, bottom left.
MR IRVING:  My Lord, the only other document I am going to
look
at in the chain is October 1943.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Looking at the chain for what purpose, Mr
Irving, can you remind me?  It is so long since we
started

.  P-203



it I cannot remember.
MR IRVING:  The chain started off as the chain of documents
showing Hitler acting in a benevolent manner, holding
out
his hand to protect categories of Jews.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I thought that was probably the answer.
MR IRVING:  But occasionally other documents I have put
them
into it out of straightforward fairness to Mr Rampton,
because I thought that otherwise he will say:  Well,
what
about this and what about that?
MR RAMPTON:  And he is still going to say that.
A.Let me comment there, the second document about the
special camp for wealthy Jews from three countries
with
relations in America, it does not actually involve
Hitler
at all.  This is an idea of Himmler's.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Anyway, it rather suggests that the other
Jews are not going to have such a happy fate.
A.I am afraid it does, my Lord, yes, particularly where
he
says they have to be kept in work camps under
conditions
that keep them alive and healthy, which suggests that
is
rather unusual.
MR IRVING:  Was this a time when there were major epidemics
raging in the camps?  In other words, this is not just
simply saying that you have to take great care that no
epidemic breaks out in this camp?
A.It is not just that.  They are saying they are not to
be
worked to death and special care is to be taken that
they

.  P-204



do not die of epidemics, unlike the rest of them is
the
implication.  This is a very special category of
people we
are talking about here, with rich relations,
influential
relations in America.
MR IRVING:  My Lord, all Mr Rampton has indicated he is not
going to discuss the Roman Jews, because it is part of
my
chain I just want to spend the remaining five minutes
looking at the two documents on that, if I may.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Because this is the case where you say
Hitler
intervened to save them?
MR IRVING:  As you will see, my Lord, yes, again under very
similar circumstances.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right.
A.My Lord, if we are going to discuss this we will have
to
discuss it at length, I fear.  I understood we were
going
on to half past 4 today?
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Just pause for a moment, Mr Irving.
MR IRVING:  I am shaking my head.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:I follow that.  What have you managed to
do
about Monday?
A.I am able to come.  I have made arrangements to come
on
Monday.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I see.  I see why you say that, because
the
Roman Jews are quite complicated.
MR IRVING:  Shall we leave it until Monday then?
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am inclined to have a go.

.  P-205



MR IRVING:  Have a stab at it now and see if we can deal
with
it.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Have you rather put them to the back of
your
mind because they seem to have not really featured in
the
case?
A.I thought we were not going to discuss these.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The position is Mr Rampton has not relied
on
it, but that does not stop Mr Irving reintroducing
that
issue.  If you say you need to bone up on it?
A.No, I am happy to do it now.
MR IRVING:  I certainly rely on them.
MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving does.  He may be making a mistake
there,
because he does not know the reason why I decided not
to.
That is his privilege to put his foot in his mouth, if
that is what is going to happen.  I do not know. I do
worry that it may take more than a quarter of an hour
though, because it is quite complicated.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am quite keen to use up all the
available
time, because I am anxious to get Professor Evans out
of
the box on Monday.
MR IRVING:  I can promise definitely that I will do
everything
I can to have him out of the box.  We now have reached
October 1943 which is of course, as far as I am
concerned,
the watershed and Hitler's knowledge.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  True, but remember Mr Rampton may have
some
re-examination.

.  P-206



MR IRVING:  I will leave him more than enough time for that
I am sure.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Shall we be open about it, because I am
quite
happy to adjourn now if we are sure we will get
Professor
Evans out of the box.
MR RAMPTON:  I can speak only about my re-examination at
the
moment which consists of but two topics.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So it may be an hour, an hour and a half?
MR RAMPTON:  Nothing like that.  It may be half an hour, maybe
three-quarters of an hour.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are you reasonably confident?
MR IRVING:  Totally confident and, if not, then it is my own fault.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I would not want to leave it on that basis.
Then I think let us adjourn now.
MR IRVING:  I think we have broken through the barbed wired.
We are right through the mine field now and we are out in
the open desert and our guns are blazing.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I had forgotten about the Roman Jews as
well.  So we are not sitting tomorrow, but Monday at 10.30

(The witness stood down)
(The Court adjourned until Monday, 21 February 2000).

.  P-207




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