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Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

MR IRVING:  Yes.  It was a matter which occurred to me quite
simply because the witness talked about the entry of
America into the war.
MR RAMPTON:  Yes, I know, but I mean there is no dispute that
up until Hitler declared war on the USA, which is one of
the stupidest things he ever did, amongst others, there
was no question about that there was some kind of a plan
to keep the Jews as hostages to try to prevent the
Americans joining the war.  It failed partly, as I say,
because Hitler made the mad decision to declare war on the
United States, but there it is.
MR IRVING:  He had bad counsel, did he not?
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I personally do not get much help from

.  P-179



that because if it is designed to show that Hitler was
merciful, it does not seem to do anything of the kind.
MR IRVING:  Can we now move on to the handwritten document
of
18th December 1941?
A.Yes.
Q.Again very briefly.  This is Himmler's notes
originally
for a conversation with Hitler, the conversation to
take
place at 4 p.m. on 18th December 1941.  Do you have
the
handwritten notes?
A.Yes, I do.
Q.In my bundle?
A.Yes.
Q.In my little bundle?
A.Yes, I have it.
Q.On the left-hand side Himmler has written as one topic
"Judenfrage"?
A.Yes.
Q."Jewish problem" -- unmistakable the word there
because it
is very clearly written?
A.Yes.
Q.On the right in a slightly different handwriting,
probably
in his green crayon, he has written "als partisan" and
 "als surotten"?
A.Yes.
Q.How do you translate that?
A."To be extirpated as partisans".

.  P-180



Q.Yes, not "like partisans"?
A.No, "as partisans".  In other words, they are to be
treated, the Jews are to be treated as partisans and
killed.  It is another of these, this rather thick,
there
is a kind of thickening of documents from the
documentary
record immediately after the declaration of war on
America, and this is one of the documents that follows
from that.  Probably a fall out of Hitler's speech to
the
Gauleiters on 12th December.
Q.On the following page but one, the next page but one,
we
have a table talk dated July 24th 1942?
A.Yes.
Q.This is not from the Henry (sic) Heim table talks now,
this is from the ----
A.Heinrich Heim.
Q.Heinrich Heim.  I am sorry, before we do that one, can
I direct your attention to one of the little documents
I brought in this morning for you?  Right at the end,
it
is typed in big typeface, it is a note on a
conversation?
A.I do not think I have got it.  It is a picture is the
last
one.
Q.Two or three pages before that, you should find two
pages
typed in large typeface?
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Consisting of what?
MR IRVING:  Henrich Heim?
A.Henrich Heim.

.  P-181



MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think I have that.
A.1862 is the number on the top right-hand side of it.
It
is in the small bundle beginning with the type, with a
kind of ----
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I have the bundle, but mine,
obviously,
does not extend as far as everybody else's.
MR IRVING:  In that case I will leave it then.  It was
purely
the man who did the table talks who had -- perhaps
that
could be given?  Do you have a copy of it, witness?
A.Yes.
Q.Right.  Is this a memorandum drawn up by Henry Heim?
A.Heinrich Heim.
Q.Heinrich Heim?
A.1968.
Q.Yes.
A.Rather a long time after the war.
Q.Yes.  Does he describe a conversation that he records
--
was he the man who wrote Hitler's Table Talk?
A.He was one of the three people who recorded Hitler's
Table
Talk, yes.
Q.Will you look just briefly at the third page that is
in
front of you there which is another typescript page --
do
you have it -- of an actual page of Hitler's table
talk in
German.
A.Yes, with a "page 4" on top?
Q.I think so, yes.

.  P-182



A.No. 4, yes.
Q.This is one of the Henry Heim table talks which ----
A.Heinrich Heim, yes.
Q.--- he himself typed, is that right?
A.It is Heinrich Heim and Henry Picker.  You must not
confuse the two.  Yes, it looks like it.  There is no
date
or anything on it.
Q.He was in a position to know things.  He was at
Hitler's
table or at the next door table writing notes during
his
table talk?  That is what he did, is it not?
A.That is right, yes.
Q.He was the adjutant to Martin Bormann?
A.Yes.
Q.In 1968, he remembers Adolf Hitler in December 1941,
for
what it is worth, and I throw that in and you will
comment
on that, does he not say: "I remember Hitler clearly
saying in December 1941, 'I do not know what the Jews
are
complaining about.  All I ask of them is that they go
and
do some good hard labour somewhere.  I do not know
even
ask of them to go and serve in the armed forces'"?
A.Yes.
Q.Do you think that conversation took place or that
remark
was made by Hitler?  He says there, "I forgot to write
it
down at the time"?
A.Yes.
Q.Does he not?  Would you attach any kind weight to that

.  P-183



remark?
A.I mean, not a great deal since Heim was a dyed in the
wool
old Nazi who ----
Q.Was he a war criminal?  Was he arrested?
A.--- was described by people who knew him as not really
living in the real world and always had this
incredibly
rosy view of Hitler.
Q.He was Hitler ----
A.This is about 40 years, nearly 40 years, after the
event,
and he is trying to tell everybody that Hitler cannot
have
known about Auschwitz.  So I treat this with a certain
degree of scepticism.
Q.Well it was not 40 years, was it?  It was slightly
less.
A.1941 to 1968.
Q.Yes.  But if he had said that in ----
A.Take off three years, if you like.
Q.--- a German court of law at or about the same time
there
were numerous trials going on that had been quoted by
the
expert witnesses in their footnotes of German trials
in
the 1970s, so it is not impossible -- he says that
this
remark does keep coming back to him.  He keeps on
remembering it, does he not?  Hitler having said, "I
do
not know what the Jews are complaining about.  I just
want
them to be sent off to do hard work.  I am not even
asking
them to go and fight in the armed forces"?
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, just so that I am clear, you
rely

.  P-184



on that as being Hitler's state of mind at this time?
MR IRVING:  According to this source ----
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No.  My question was you rely on this
document as establishing that that was, indeed,
Hitler's
state of mind?
MR IRVING:  As far as I think the German Jews are
concerned,
yes.  I do not think Heim is specific about which Jews
he
is talking about.  I do not think he is throwing in
all
the wretched Jews in the Russian cities who have
fallen
into German hands.  It is a document in the Institute
of
History.  It is in their archives.  They have
conducted
several interviews with Heim and, for what it is
worth, I
have put it in as yet another indication that the
people
who were close to Hitler never heard him saying
anything
different.  On some occasions they heard him say
things
like this.  Now, we ----
A.Yes, I mean, it is difficult to digest this, just
having
first seen it.  I mean, I would not place a great deal
of
credence on this ----
Q.I am sorry you have just seen it.  It has been in
discovery for about 18 months.
A.--- on this document.  Well, it is just not a very
convincing document.  It may well be that Hitler made
some
kind of cynical remark like this, that Jews -- he was
always saying the Jews had reason to be grateful to
him.
Q.Yes.

.  P-185



A.All he wanted from them is work.  But I think that is
just
a cynical remark ----
Q.Yes.
A.--- in the winter of 1941 to '42 and it does not ----
Q.Professor, I think you may very well be right, you may
very well be right.
A.It does not support the rather kind of romantic things
that he goes on to say about Hitler later in the
document.
Q.Can you now look to a table talk written, not by Heim
or
probably not by Heim, but by Henry Picker who
succeeded
him?
A.Yes.
Q.July 24th 1942?
A.Right.
Q.It is the end of the first ----
A.Sorry, this is your -- you are still on page 4, is it?
Q.I am sorry, it is in my bundle ----
A.Ah, yes, your bundle.
Q.--- of my chain of documents?
A.Yes, I have that.
Q.At the end of the first full paragraph ----
A.Yes.
Q.--- is Hitler quoted as saying:  "After this war is
over"
 -- there is that phrase again, is it not -- "after
this
war is over" ----
A.Yes.

.  P-186



Q.--- "I am going to stand rigorously on the standpoint
that
I am going to knock these cities' heads together", if
you
can put it like that, "if the Jews don't come out and
we
get rid of them to Madagascar or some other Jewish
national state"?
A.Yes.
Q.Do you detect there two lines that I have been
constantly
putting to this court, first of all, the tendency of
Hitler to postpone things until after the war is over
and,
secondly, the tendency for a geographical solution
rather
than for a homicidal solution, if I can put it like
that?
A.What I detect there, Mr Irving, is pure camouflage by
Hitler.  He is telling a group of people at dinner
this
complete porky pie about wanting to send them off to
Madagascar.  It is 24th July 1947, the time when the
extermination programme is already in full swing.  The
camps at Belzec, Sobibor and Auschwitz are already in
operation, Treblinka had just got its first
contingent,
and on 10th February 1942 there is a Foreign Office
document who, in fact -- in which the official had
first
proposed the Madagascar plan, many months earlier than
this document, says that the Fuhrer has decided that
the
Jews should be pushed off, not to Madagascar, but to
the
East.  Madagascar, therefore, does not need to be
foreseen
for the Final Solution any more.
  So, on his own orders, the plan had been

.  P-187



abandoned in February, and here he is spinning this
kind
of smoke screen, to use your phrase, about it in his
circle of acquaintances and officers and so in July
1942.
So I think this is a ----
Q.So he is living in cloud cuckoo land then, is he not?
A.No, he is deliberately trying to deceive his audience.
Q.Or living in cloud cuckoo land?
A.No, deliberately trying to deceive his audience.
Q.Well, your sentence that he is deliberately trying to
deceive presupposes that you can produce evidence that
he
knew precisely what was going which is what we have
been
searching for for several weeks.
A.Well, I do not think -- there is plenty of evidence,
Mr Irving.
Q.I think we have dealt with that document now.  Can we
now
just go on to the next one which is July 28th 1942?
It is
a white on black document.  This is a document that
you
yourself also quote, do you not?
A.Yes -- if I can find it.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mine is almost illegible and in German?
A.Yes, mine is very difficult to read.
MR IRVING:  I am only relying on the first paragraph, my
Lord,
and I will read it out to you in English, if I may?
A.That is what worries me.
Q.There should be a dark version and a light version.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have only got a -- no, wait a minute, no.

.  P-188

Actually, you are quite right.  There is a page in between in my clip.

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