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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts/day021.07

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day021.07
Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

   Q.   That was not what you said in answer to my question, was
        it?  You said you did not know of any instances where he
        had been wrong?
   A.   I honestly cannot remember.  I would have to see the
   Q.   You would have to see the transcript.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, probably now is the right
        to ask you this.  Where are you suggesting, or where
        anyone suggesting, we should put this clip of
        because it is very convenient you have prepared it in
        way you have.
   MS ROGERS:  If I can help?  L2 is the Kristallnacht file.
        There should be an empty tab 9.  If it is empty, I
        it goes there.
   MR IRVING:  Do you, therefore, accept, Professor, that I
        three sources of what you would describe as being of
        variable quality, all converging on an episode in
        private quarters on the Night of Broken Glass in which
        Hitler, apparently, vented his anger upon receiving
        of what was happening in Munich, at least?
   A.   Yes, and I think they are all lying.
   Q.   You think that all three are separately lying?
   A.   Well, Mr Irving, it is not beyond the bounds of
        possibility.  You have already suggested in the course
        this trial that many thousands of Holocaust survivors

.          P-58

        all collectively lying, so it is not beyond the bounds
        possibility that three people are lying, is it?
   Q.   But the problem we have with the eyewitnesses in other
        matters before the court is that their accounts
        whereas the significant detail about these three is
        in minor points the little bits of verisimilitude are
   A.   Like the fact that it took place on a Sunday, for
   Q.   I am now going to take you through some points in your
        report relating to the Kristallnacht, page 237, line
   A.   237?
   Q.   You say that the real number of deaths, including
        suicides, was certainly much higher than 91.
   A.   Right, yes.
   Q.   And, of course, I put the figure at about 91 or 100,
        I not, in my book?
   A.   That is right.
   Q.   That is what you are criticising?  Do you have any
        evidence for saying that the real number of deaths was
        certainly much higher?
   A.   Yes, now there were, certainly I think over 200 in
        alone.  That is the figure, of course, that is given
        the Nazi Party tribunal, but it is clear that there
        deaths, suicides, in the camps when the 20,000 were

.          P-59

   Q.   Where does that figure come from?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What, 91 or 200?
   MR IRVING:  The larger figure.
   A.   The 91 are the murders which are listed in the Party
   Q.   Yes.  In a Party report; of course, there were several
        such reports, were there not?
   A.   That is the Party tribunal which investigated these
   Q.   So the figure of 200 in Vienna alone, where does that
        of figure come from?
   A.   That comes from a contemporary report in Vienna.  I am
        trying to find where my records are of this.  I think
        I answered this in one of my answers to your written
   Q.   Very well.  Let us proceed then.
   A.   I refer you to that, my Lord.
   Q.   It is rather holding up the court on that matter.  I
        not attach much importance to that, my Lord, so we
        move on.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I do not think it is...
   MR IRVING:  At the beginning of paragraph 8, please?
        events were the only major nationwide pogrom
undertaken in
        public against the Jewish population during the 'Third
        Reich'", is that the popular perception nowadays?
   A.   Would you like to point me to others?

.          P-60

   Q.   Do you accept that there were other major pogroms
        the Jews in Germany?
   A.   Could you name some?
   Q.   Are these well-known to historians, do you think?
   A.   Could you tell me when they happened?
   Q.   Can I turn your attention to page 252 of my Goebbels
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Does the middle paragraph, the second paragraph, of
        page describe a pogrom in Berlin organized by the
Nazis in
        June 1938 of which there has so far by no description
        historians like yourself?  All the usual Nazi methods,
        harassment, rounding up "1,122 criminal, 445", I
         "'anti-social', and 77 foreign Jews found ...
        1,029 were thrown into concentration camps ... 250
        Jewish-owned automobiles seized pending safety tests",
        mean, real harassment going on there?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the relevance of this, Mr Irving?
   MR IRVING:  He has said here in his paragraph 8 that this
         "the only nationwide pogrom undertaken in public
        the Jewish population during the 'Third Reich'".  It
is an
        attack on his credibility as an expert witness.  He
        appears unfamiliar with the facts that in June 1938
        Goebbels organized without any consent from Hitler a
        pogrom against the Jews which is a kind of a trial run
        a major scale in Berlin, and I found the details of

.          P-61

        in records in Princetown University Library.  There is
        original report by Heldorf, the Police Chief of
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I hear what you say, Mr Irving, but what
I am
        concerned with is whether the criticisms of your
        of Kristallnacht are well-founded or whether they are
        and the fact you have discovered another, as you put
        major pogrom in Berlin in June 1938 does not appear to
        help me very much on that.
   MR IRVING:  Well, it is a question of state of mind and
        set and expertise of myself versus this witness, my
   THE WITNESS:  May I just then, in response to that, say
        of course, I am aware of the fact that there was a
        deal of harassment and violence towards Jews in the
        Reich, throughout the Third Reich, from the very
        beginning, in particular, the beginning of April 1933,
        during the so-called Nazi seizure of power during
        months there were many arrests and a great deal of
        violence against individual Jews.  There was a
        considerable amount in 1935 which was the background
        the Nuremberg laws, and there were a considerable
        of events, of violent actions, against arrests of,
        harassment, maltreatment of Jews, right the way
        including 1938.
                  The point I am trying to make here is that,
         "These events were the only major nationwide pogrom
        undertaken in public against the Jewish population

.          P-62

        the 'Third Reich'".  Let me draw your attention to two
        words there, the first is "pogrom" which I understand
        be acts of mass violence and destruction and,
                  What you are describing here in the central
        paragraph of page 252 of Goebbels are arrests
        no doubt, by harassment and, secondly, it is only in
        Berlin.  So I feel that I am justified in making that
   MR IRVING:  Can we turn to page 258, please, of your
        You are accusing me here of suppressing evidence
        are you not?  Line 3, you have given a quotation from
        Goebbels diary, page 56:  "Shock-troop Hitler gets
        immediately to clear things out", and so on, "the
        during the night".  Then you state:  "This
        document - not mentioned by Irving" ----
   A.   May I just pre-empt you here, in my letter with
        amendments, 10th January 2000, I recognize on checking
        through it all again that you do cite the century on
        276 of Goebbels, so I was wrong there.
   Q.   So you were wrong there to suggest that I had
   A.   Absolutely, yes, yes.
   Q.   I quoted it in full, in fact?
   A.   That is another matter, but you do mention it.
   Q.   I quoted it in full?

.          P-63

   A.   You will have to direct me to the place.
   Q.   Page 276 of the Goebbels biography, and you have
        me of not mentioning this contemporary document?
   A.   No, I have withdrawn that accusation, Mr Irving.
        I withdrew it on 10th January.  So you had over a
month to
        read that.
   Q.   Yes, but I am just drawing your attention to the fact
        once again you have made an accusation ----
   A.   The court is already aware of that.  I drew my own
        attention -- I drew your attention to the fact, Mr
   Q.   You made an accusation against me which turns out to
        completely unfounded?
   A.   I withdrew that remark.  Page what of Goebbels?
   Q.   276.
   A.   Is that right, page 276?
   Q.   Lower down that page, I am now back on your report
        paragraph 7.
   A.   Wait a minute, I am just checking the shock-troop
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I cannot find it.
   A.   I cannot find it either.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Whereabouts on 276, Mr Irving?
   MR IRVING:  Let us work backwards from:  "His old ...
        to the words) ... past comes flooding back".  That is
        final sentence of that paragraph.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Which paragraph?
   A.   The indented quote in the middle of page 276, my Lord,

.          P-64

        which follows on:  "We go with Schaub to the Artists'
        Club, to await further bulletins" or "reports" in my
        version.  "In Berlin five synagogues are ablaze, then
        Now the people's anger is aroused.  That night", so on
        so forth, "Schaub was on top form".  I suppose that
        is ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes I see?
   A.   "Schaub is completely worked up.  His old shock-troop
        coming past".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
   MR IRVING:  Paragraph 7 on your page of your report 258,
        take exception to my relying on von Below.  You say:
        appears clear in this instance that rather than rely
        the published book", I relied on the interview von
        in 1968?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   How many interviews did I conduct with colonel von
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do you mean there were more than one?
   MR IRVING:  There were about 10, my Lord, yes.
   A.   This was the interview in 1968, interviews, if you
        this is a particular interview, one particular
        in 1968.
   Q.   All of the von Below interviews were available to your
        researchers in the archives, were they not?
   A.   We are arguing about the word "the" here, Mr Irving.
   Q.   No, we are arguing about "interviewer" in the

.          P-65

   A.   I do not think that sentence implies that there were
        more, and it is not an important matter.  I am happy
        concede that you conducted various interviews.  If you
        like, I will withdraw the word "the" and put "and".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry, the substance of the
criticism is
        that you go to your interview with him rather than to
        own published book.  That may or may not be a valid
        criticism, but worrying about whether there was more
        one interview seems to me to be missing the wood for
   MR IRVING:  Over the page, my Lord, on page 259, line 2, I
        allegedly, von Below allegedly told me something which
        implies that, in fact, there is no proof for it.  The
        "allegedly" implies there is no proof for it.  That
        coupled with paragraph 9 where I am accused of having
        about obtaining the papers of von Below and using his
        unpublished manuscript?
   A.   Well, he accused you of that.
   Q.   On page 261, paragraph 11, we come to the famous
        where from the Goebbels diary -- from the court report
         "Thousands of Jews would have to believe in it in the
        coming days"?
   A.   Sorry, page what?
   Q.   At the end of paragraph 11 of page 261.
   A.   261, right.  Yes.  I have opted for a literal
        there because I did not want to be accused of

.          P-66

        exaggerating.  I mean, I tried to convey there is a
        of menace in that, of course, perhaps had better
        it in the coming days.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the point on that, Mr Irving?
   MR IRVING:  It is a German slang for "will die".
   A.   No, I cannot agree with that.
   Q.   "Are going for a burton"?
   A.   No, it is not German slang for "will die".  If you
look it
        up in the dictionary as I have done.  It is "will
        the consequences" is one possible meaning.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  "Glauben" means "believe", it does not
   MR IRVING:  It does indeed, but it is German slang.  A
        is a beer, but "going for a burton" has a specific
        meaning, my Lord.  Goebbels writes his diary in slang,
        Goebbels speaks slang.  "Daran glauben mussen" is a
        slang, as, in fact, the Frankfurt Allgemeiner has
        out, that I was perfectly correct in this particular
   A.   There is a threat -- there is threat included in that, but
        it does not threaten death.  If you look it up in a
        dictionary, Mr Irving, you will find it does not mean
        "will" die.

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