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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts/day020.16


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day020.16
Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

   Q.   Is not what I do precisely what a balanced and neutral
        observer should do?  He should provide material on the one
        side, material on the other side, and easy instantaneous
        links by Internet to people with a totally contradictory
        point of view?  Is that not what I do?  The Holocaust
        History Project, Niscore, these are web sites with a
        viewpoint that are completely the opposite and yet I put
        an instant and easy link to them.
   A.   Yes, but what you are doing here is suggesting that these
        are two equal sides of some academic scholarly argument
        and therefore you, as it were, give yourself credence and
        respectability by doing that.
   Q.   Your final sentence on that page says, "In other words,
        Irving is using his website to publicize Holocaust denial
        material", but you do agree that I publicize the other
        side of the story too, do I not?
   A.   Yes, you do.
   Q.   You think there is only one side of the story that should
        be publicised?  Is that your viewpoint?
   A.   I do not think that the Internet should be used to
        publicise phoney, fake and falsifying material.
   Q.   You would like to see it censored, would you?  You
would
        like to have automatic filters installed?  Is that
what
        you are saying?
   A.   I am not saying that at all.  I am saying it is your
        responsibility for what you do.

.          P-141



   Q.   In other words, to say that I only publicise Holocaust
        denial material, as you call it ----
   A.   I do not think I do that.  I do not say that.
   Q.   You accept that on my website I also put documents
giving
        the other point of view?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think he said that two or three times.
   MR IRVING:  Yes.  Thank you very much.  Can you now turn to
        page 193?  I am now going to look briefly at the DVU,
the
        Deutsche Volks-Union, the German People's Union.  Can
you
        estimate approximately how long that political
        organization has been active in Germany?  About 20
years
        or 30 years?
   A.   My Lord, I am not the expert on this.  I understand
there
        is another expert report on this.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is that Professor Funke?
   MR IRVING:  Yes.  That is why I am only going to question
you
        briefly.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is coming.  I think he is a better
chap to
        ask about DVU.
   MR IRVING:  I am only going to question him very briefly,
my
        Lord.
   A.   I am only concerned with it here in so far as it is
        connected with or purveys Holocaust denial.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It does not seem to me the best point in
the
        world anyway, so let us move on and leave that for
        Professor Funke.

.          P-142



   MR IRVING:  Just the last line of that paragraph, my Lord,
in
        case Professor Funke does not raise it.  "Mr Irving
had
        also been asked by the DVU 'to do lucrative research
in
        the Berlin Document Centre'".  That is a quotation
from my
        diary.  Is that right, May 19th, 1984?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   About 16 years ago.  Are you familiar with the
lucrative
        research that Dr Frey of DVU asked me to do in the
Berlin
        Document Centre?
   A.   Remind me.
   Q.   Is it right that the Berlin Document Centre at that
time
        was an American government organization which held the
        entire biographical records on all the top Nazis?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Millions and millions of them?
   A.   Yes. A lot, anyway.
   Q.   Is it evident from my diary and from the papers that
have
        been put before you that the research that Dr. Frey
and
        the DVU asked me to was to weasel out the ex Nazis in
the
        German government, get hold of their biographical
records
        showing they were members of the Nazi party, and is
this a
        despicable thing to have done, or in any way would you
        wish to criticise that kind of operation?
   A.   It depends for the purposes for which they want to do
it.
        For all I know, they may want to do it to make contact
        with them and applaud them.

.          P-143



   Q.   In the spirit of his Lordship's admonition, I shall
move
        on.  Just briefly though, you do accept that the
German
        People's Union has at all times been a legal body and
has
        never ever come up against the legal authorities in
        Germany?
   A.   I think this is more a matter for Professor Funke,
really
        but I understand that it has been under constant
        observation by the Germans, or for a considerable time
        under observation by the German Office for the
Protection
        of the Constitution at various land branches of that,
as
        I say, an extreme right-wing organization.
   Q.   Page 195, we are now on a Mr Anthony Hancock.  Again,
I am
        not going to deal with him in any detail because
        I understand that I am going to be cross-examined on
        Mr Hancock so that is probably the right time to deal
with
        that unless your Lordship feels I should fill in any
of
        the detail.  I am only concerned with the fact that
you
        drag in not only Anthony Hancock, but his father,
saying
        that he was a former member of Oswald Mosley's
        blackshirts.  Should this be held against him?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I seem to remember that, when I was last in the High
Court
        30 years ago, the judge was Mr Justice Lawton, and he
had
        also been a member of that organization before the
war.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  My own view of this is, if may say so,
        Professor Evans, by all means criticise Mr Irving for
his

.          P-144



        relationship with Anthony Hancock if he is a member of
the
        National Front and so on, but I cannot for life of me
see
        what relevance his father's membership of the
blackshirts
        is.
   A.   I am happy to have that left out.  It is of no great
        importance to my report.
   Q.   It is gratuitous and I personally do not think it has
        any significance at all, so I am entirely with you,
        Mr. Irving, if I may say so.
   A.   I understood that both of them published, Did 6
million
        really die, by Richard Harwood?
   MR IRVING:  What connection has that with me?
   A.   That is a Holocaust denial book and you have an
        association with Anthony Hancock.
   Q.   So a printer prints a Holocaust denial book and this
is
        somehow linked immediately to me.  Is this the way you
        have built up your evidence?
   A.   No.  You have an association with Mr Hancock.
   Q.   And, because his father -- is that not what the Nazis
        called sippenhaft, if somebody in a family has done
        something wrong, you arrest the whole family?
   A.   Let me read the passage from my report:  "Anthony
Hancock
        junior Anthony Hancock hired the venue and distributed
        tickets for a 'revisionist' seminar in London on 4th
July
        1992 in which Irving spoke.  Hancock's Historical
Review
        Press printed Irving's newsletter Focal Point in the
early

.          P-145



        1980s and Hancock was filmed at a Holocaust denial
meeting
        in Munich at which Irving was a guest of honour, and
there
        were various mentions in your diary of the older
Hancock
        who is offering funds and facilities to publish the
        Churchill biography".  I am simply trying to establish
        there that you have connections with these two
Holocaust
        deniers.
   Q.   This word "Holocaust denier" has become quite
frequently
        fixed in your vocabulary, has it not, 300 times in
this
        report alone?
   A.   I was asked, Mr Irving, to comment on that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do not rise to the bait.
   A.   I am sorry, we have been through that many times
before,
        my Lord.
   MR IRVING:  Everybody who is sinister is suddenly called a
        Holocaust denier and it begins to grate after a time.
Can
        you look at paragraph 11 now?  This is the next
        gentleman.
   A.   I will not rise to that, Mr Irving, on his Lordship's
        instructions.
   Q.   Here we are:  "Perhaps the most sinister of the
Holocaust
        deniers with whom Irving has had extensive and long
term
        contacts was General Otto Ernst Remer".  Is that still
        your view?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think the way to cross-examine, if I
may
        say, on this sort of allegation is, I do not know what
the

.          P-146



        facts are, but, Professor Evans, do you realize that I
        have only met the man twice, or whatever?  Asking him
if
        it is still his view is not going to help.  Just put
what
        you say is wrong with the proposition that you have
had
        long term contacts with him.  That is really the
quickest
        way of dealing with it.
   MR IRVING:  Will you turn to page 91 of bundle F, please.
Is
        that a page from my diary dated July 22nd 1989?
   A.   Sorry, which page?
   Q.   91 or thereabouts.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Something may have gone wrong with the
        bundle.
   MR IRVING:  It has.  Towards the end it has become a bit
        screwed up.  It will be at the end somewhere.
   A.   No.  I am sorry, I do not seem to have it.
   Q.   Bundle F?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think 91, oddly enough, seems to be
        missing.
   A.   Yes.  I do not have it, my Lord.
   MR IRVING:  It will be one of the last two or three pages,
a
        page headed July 22nd 1989.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not have it.  I think it should be
after
        the Spectator letter, and it is not.  Some people have
        it.  I am sorry, I just do not have it.
   MR IRVING:  The content is almost immaterial.  Have you
found
        it, Professor?

.          P-147



   A.   No, I have not, but I am familiar with it.
   Q.   It is a one page entry from my diary July 22nd 1989.
Does
        it refer to my driving to a place called Vlotho, and
        meeting a general called Remer?
   A.   Yes.  If it helps, this is dealt with in my written
        responses.  It would hurry things up a bit.
   Q.   Now I come to the question which his Lordship wishes
me to
        ask.  Will you agree that this is the only one time or
        occasion on which I have ever met General Remer and
had a
        conversation with him?
   A.   Yes.  I will withdraw the "extensive and long term
        contacts".  You had contacts with him in 1989 at that
        particular occasion that you mention.  There Remer was
        present at Munich on 21st April 1990 when you were
        speaking.  You were to have spoken to a meeting which
was
        cancelled, a meeting alongside side Remer in 1991.
   Q.   I am sorry to halt your flood of rhetoric but can I
read
        out to you your first sentence of paragraph 11,
please?
   A.   You had plenty of close and repeated contacts with----
   MR RAMPTON:  I do believe that Mr Irving is occasionally
guilty
        of discourtesy.  My Lord. I would not interrupt a
witness
        like that in that aggressive----
   MR IRVING:  I have to interrupt, Mr Rampton, because
otherwise
        ----
   MR RAMPTON:  I am speaking to his Lordship, Mr Irving.
Please
        remain quiet.  I am making an objection to the way in

.          P-148



        which Mr Irving is attempting to harrass the witness.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The objection is entirely well founded.
        Would you like to pick it up where you left off,
Professor
        Evans, which was you were talking of a meeting in
1991.
   A.   Yes, and you had repeated contacts with Karl Philip,
who
        was Remer's assistant in 1989 to 1991, page 1967.  I
        mention the meeting in Munich again, and of course
your
        Action Report website carried an obituary praising
Remer
        as loyal to the old cause.  So what I think I say I is
        that I withdraw "extensive and long term contacts" and
        I would say that you were in contact with General
Remer in
        the period 1989 to 1991 1.
   MR IRVING:  Can I now read into the record therefore the
        sentence which you are withdrawing: "Perhaps the most
        sinister of the Holocaust deniers with whom Irving has
had
        extensive and long term contacts was General Otto
Ernst
        Remer", and it turns out I had a conversation with him
        only once.  As your Lordship will see from the diary
        entry, it was an entirely proper conversation where I
        interviewed him for the purpose of the Goebbels book
and
        all the rest is waffle.
   A.   I have said I would withdraw "extensive and long
term".  I
        hope that satisfies you.
   Q.   On 197, five lines from the bottom, you say: "He
(Irving
        in other words), was active" ----
   A.   No, sorry.  That is a mistake.  That is Remer.

.          P-149



   Q.   So you are not suggesting that I was active in the
HIAG?
   A.   No.  That is a misunderstanding on your part, Mr
Irving.
        It refers back to Remer early in the sentence.
   Q.   I continue:  "He was active in the HIAG, an
organisation
        for ex members of the SS with which Irving also had
        contacts".
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Now what on earth is the source for that particular
        allegation?
   A.   The February 1979 issue of the HIAG house magazine Der
        Frewillige, volunteer, carries an interview with you by
        someone called Joachim Cannicht, which I presume is a
        pseudonym, and one presumes therefore that contact with
        the magazine and thus with its parent organization were
        necessary in order to set up and carry out the interview
        unless you are telling me you did not give the interview
        or you were not aware of who was doing it.

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