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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts/day019.19


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day019.19
Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

   Q.   It just says there were children who were in the camp at
        the time of the liberation?
   A.   There is no indication of what they are doing there or why
        they were there.
   Q.   You said also the ones who were sick were also selected
        for death?
   A.   On the whole, yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, I think this is really a little unfair.
        Professor Evans is not a Holocaust expert.  Professor van
        Pelt has already told your Lordship, which Mr Irving knows
        perfectly well, that the gas chambers ceased operation in
        October 1944.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, Professor Evans on page 114 has gone in
        some detail into the death books.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  My own feeling is that we went into all
        these questions, particularly the camp registers, in great
        deal with Professor van Pelt.  You are right in saying
        that Professor Evans does mention gas chambers in
        Auschwitz, but he has told you he does not regard himself
        as a great expert, besides which Mr Rampton's last

.          P-171



        observation does seem to be a fair one, does it not?
   MR IRVING:  I completely endorse this, and I always bow to
Mr
        Rampton's wisdom which is far superior ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You do not need to do that.
   MR RAMPTON:  I have no wisdom but I have a wizard short-
term
        memory.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is right, is it not, that the gas
chambers
        ceased to exist when they were really destroyed in
1944,
        so that if there were transports including women and
        children you would expect to find them within the
barbed
        wire at Auschwitz in 1945?
   MR IRVING:  They must have arrived then as children and
they
        must have avoided selection somehow as children.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It may be that the selection process
stopped
        when the gas chambers disappeared.
   MR IRVING:  If your Lordship will rule that this witness
should
        not be asked questions about Auschwitz, then I will
        happily comply.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I cannot do that, because he has
referred
        to Auschwitz in his report and therefore he is, it
seems
        to me, amenable to cross-examination on that topic.
But
        if I were you, I really would not bother to cover the
same
        ground, because you cross-examined Professor van Pelt
----
   MR IRVING:  I agree, but I am in difficulties because this
        witness has covered the same ground, particularly in
his
        footnote, for example, No. 13 where he says:  "As we
have

.          P-172



        seen, the camp records did not include those killed or
        shortly on arrival".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I know. That is why I am not going to
rule
        out this cross-examination, but I say again, the bits
that
        matter in Professor Evans' report start in, I am
afraid it
        is still 30 pages time when he starts to make the
        historians' criticisms of you, and that is the meat of
his
        report.  But I cannot stop you, it seems to me.  I can
        encourage you to take it quickly.
   MR IRVING:  Which is what I am doing.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I can suggest you might not think it
really
        worth doing at all.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, this is short track I am taking at
        present.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right.
   MR IRVING:  If I could take you now to page 115, we are now
        going to deal with Professor Hinsley.  On paragraph 16
you
        say Hinsley did not claim that nearly all the deaths
were
        due to disease.  Professor Hinsley is of course a
        recognized authority, he is not?
   A.   He was, yes.
   Q.   He is an official British historian of the British
        Intelligence Services?
   A.   He was, yes.
   Q.   In volume 2 of his work he published an appendix, did
he
        not, on the police decodes?

.          P-173



   A.   Yes.
   Q.   In the first line you write, in paragraph 16: "All he
        wrote was that the British decrypts of encoded radio
        messages sent from Auschwitz did not mention
gassings",
        but in fact if you look at your footnote 18 on the
next
        page he is slightly more specific, is he not?  He
says:
        "The returns from Auschwitz, the largest of the camps
        with 20,000 prisoners, mentioned illness as the main
cause
        of death", is that correct?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "It included references to shootings and hangings",
and
        then he continues: "There were no references in the
        decrypts to gassing".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, I am sorry, I am going to
        interrupt you because I think we may be able to take
this
        a bit more shortly.  Professor van Pelt said, well,
that
        probably is right and it is not very surprising
because
        the decrypts were talking about what was going on in
the
        camps, and the whole point about the gassing was that
it
        was not going on in the camps in that sense.  Mr
Rampton,
        am I wrong about that?
   MR RAMPTON:  That is absolutely right.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That was what he said?
   MR RAMPTON:  That is absolutely right.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Therefore, this point -- I am not saying
it
        is not a good point on Hinsley and the decrypts, but
that

.          P-174



        is the explanation we have had so far.
   MR IRVING:  I must have nodded when Professor van Pelt said
        that, my Lord, because if he had said that I would
        certainly queried that and said:  Well, where were the
        gassings takings place then?
   MR RAMPTON:  I can also tell your Lordship, to save coming
back
        to it, this comes from Mr Irving's website, that on
13th
        September 1941 Deluge, who was the Chief of the Order
        Police, sent a message to the forces in Russia about
        confidentiality and he said this:  "That information
which
        is containing State secrets calls for especially
secret
        treatment.  Into this category fall exact figures
        executions.  These are to be sent by courier".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, but that is another point.  Am I
wrong
        about what I recall Professor van Pelt having said?
   MR RAMPTON:  No, you are absolutely right.  What van Pelt,
        amongst others, has said, it is in his report and I
think
        he also said it in the witness box, is you would not
        expect to find details of the gassings on the decrypts
for
        two reasons.  First, because it was secret, as this
        message suggests, but much more important because the
        people who were gassed on arrival were never
registered
        and would not have been subject of the codes anyway.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I thought he had said that.  We can
look
        up the reference if you are doubtful.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, that was a horrendous interruption

.          P-175



        Mr Rampton and I withdraw the nice remarks I said
earlier.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do not upset Mr Rampton, but I had rather
        encouraged that, I am afraid it is my fault.
   MR IRVING:  Deluge was only referring to the shootings on
the
        Eastern Front.  Deluge was only responsible for the
        shootings on the Eastern Front.  He was in no way
        responsible for the concentration camp system which
came
        under a completely different hierarchy.  I am sure
        Mr Rampton knows that.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, the point is the same.
   MR IRVING:  But I will move on from there because clearly
we
        are not going to ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If you want to take a short break, Mr
Irving,
        at any stage you only have to ask.  You know that, do
you
        not?
   MR IRVING:  Can we move on to page 118.  We are getting
very
        close now to the ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR IRVING:  You refer to the aerial photographs, but,
witness,
        you are not an expert on Auschwitz, so there is no
point
        really asking you about this at all, is there?  I mean
all
        the statements you made about Auschwitz and in these
180
        pages so far are, effectively, off the top of your
head,
        because you have not studied it to the same degree
other
        witnesses have?
   A.   I am not making statements about Auschwitz.  I am
making

.          P-176



        statements here about what you write about Auschwitz,
and
        this is a particular section here which is, if I can
find
        the beginning of it, about the figures, the numbers
        killed, and I am trying to go through what you write
about
        it.
   Q.   Yes.  Are you not familiar with the history of the
        operation of the Haganah in Germany after World War
II?
   A.   No, I am not.  My point here is that you claim that
the
        Jews who disappeared did not die but were secretly
        transported to Palestine by the Haganah and given new
        identities, rather than have being killed in
Auschwitz.
        I have to say I find that quite a fantastic suggestion
for
        which you provide no documentary basis, even though in
        other areas, as we have seen repeatedly, you demand
the
        most strictest criteria of documentary support for any
        statements made about the Nazis policy towards the
Jews
        and what happened to the Jews and so on.
   Q.   Would it fair to expand that sentence that you have
just
        read out slightly:  He has, for instance, claimed that
        some of the Jews who disappeared, because obviously I
am
        not claiming that all Jews disappeared went to
Palestine?
        What you meant there was that I am saying that some of
the
        Jews or a part of or a large part of the Jews but not
all
        of, right?
   A.   I would have to go back to what you wrote there.
   Q.   Clearly I have not suggested that all the Jews who

.          P-177



        disappeared went to Palestine, have I?  Do you agree?
   A.   I am afraid I would have to go back and check.  I mean
        where have the bodies gone from -- "There is no trace
in
        Allies' aerial photographs of mass graves in
Auschwitz.
        Where have the bodies gone?"  You have supplied more
than
        one answer.  So, these answers may cover different
groups
        of Jews of course.
   Q.   Yes.  So you accept then that I am talking about a
part of
        the missing Jews?
   A.   Well, the implication in what you write is clearly it
is a
        very significant part, as again your claim that some
of
        the missing Jews had fled to Dresden and were killed
in
        the February 1945 bombing raid.
   Q.   Can we just stay with the Palestine ones?  You say
that
        you are not familiar with the operations of the
Haganah in
        Germany after World War II, operating in conjunction
with
        UNRRA, the Refugee and Relief Agency?
   A.   No, I am not, no.  You do not provide any evidence
that
        they were secretly transported to Palestine by the
        Haganah.
   Q.   Do you accept that there is a very lengthy report on
the
        operations of the Haganah in the American Government
        archives about 250,000 pages long by the Military
Governor
        of Germany describing how ----
   A.   Mr Irving, I am concerned with what you write here and
        what you write is a suggestion which is unsupported by

.          P-178



        anything like that, that large numbers of Jews were
        secretly transported to Palestine by the Haganah and
given
        new identities, therefore, rendered untraceable, and
did
        not die in Auschwitz and other extermination camps or
were
        not shot and killed.
   Q.   So you maintain that this did not happen?  You are
casting
        doubt on it?
   A.   No, I am not talking about what happened and what did
not
        happen.  I am talking about what you present as having
        happened.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  And the evidence for that?
   A.   And the evidence.
   MR IRVING:  Yes, but I just tried to put to him this
lengthy
        report in the American Government archives and the
witness
        interrupted me halfway through.
   A.   I am sorry.  What I am trying to say is that
irrespective
        of that, you do not cite that as evidence.  You are
simply
        suggesting, as it seems to me out of thin air, that
large
        numbers of Jews were secretly transported to Palestine
and
        did not die in Auschwitz.
   Q.   Will you accept that I do not write passages like that
out
        of thin air?
   A.   No.
   Q.   That in fact I probably have a very good source which
for
        one reason or another I have not identified?
   A.   No, I am sorry, I will not.

.          P-179



   Q.   In other words, you believe that I write this out of
thin
        air, that I make it up?
   A.   I do not see any evidence that you have not made it
up.
   Q.   And you are not prepared to accept my suggestion that
        there is this very lengthy report in the US National
        archives on the operations of the Haganah written by
the
        American Military Governor?
   A.   Well, you can suggest whatever you like now.  The point is
        what I am doing is looking in here, in this report, is
        looking at what you have written and said in the past and
        the documentary support or otherwise that you have adduced
        for it.

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