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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts/day019.07


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day019.07
Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Anyway, let us move on.

.          P-57

   A.   Yes.  If I can just say, my Lord, the point that I make
        repeatedly in my report is that the three dots, as it
        were, are missing from Mr Irving's manipulation of
        quotations.  He does not ----
   MR IRVING:  Have you found one instance where I have not
        replaced missing materials with the appropriate ellipses,
        I ask you, Professor.
   A.   Plenty, yes.
   Q.   And you have referred to them actually in your report?
   A.   Yes, yes.
   Q.   We shall take that when we come.  Can you give one example
        from memory?
   A.   For example, in your -- yes, from memory, your account of
        the discussions between Admiral Horthy and Hitler and
        Ribbentrop in 1943, when you actually mix up, when you
        transpose a phrase from Hitler from one day to the
other
        in order to make him look better without any
indication
        that you have actually done this.
   Q.   This is totally different from the question I asked
you.
        Have you found one instance where I left words or a
        passage out of a document and did not replace it with
        ellipses?
   A.   Exactly, then that is exactly my answer.
   Q.   No.
   A.   I am afraid it is, Mr Irving.  Shall we turn to the
        pages  ----

.          P-58



   Q.   Please do, yes.
   A.   --- in question?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is around page 440.  I think it is
444,
        but I may be wrong.
   A.   The point here is that you transpose the sentence
        from  ----
   MR IRVING:  We are not talking about transposition here.
   A.   Well, what we are doing is that you leave out the
entire
        gap, the entire enormous passages, between the
discussions
        of 16th and discussions of 17th of April 1943, and
        you  ----
   Q.   I think you are deliberately obscuring the issue.
This is
        not the answer to my question.
   A.   I am sorry, I am not deliberately obscuring ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, let him give it and then you can,
of
        course, make the point that it is not an answer to the
        question.  Sorry, Professor Evans, carry on.
   A.   Here is your -- you simply go straight on, what you
said,
         "'They can hardly be murdered or otherwise
eliminated',
        he protested.  Hitler reassured him there is no need
for
        that".
   MR IRVING:  Are you suggesting I left material out of that
        sentence?
   A.   That implied, that implies, that there was no gap at
all
        between these two sentences.
   Q.   You know as well as I do, Professor, what the
etiquette

.          P-59



        for use of ellipses is.  Is that correct?
   A.   Indeed, yes.
   Q.   That is not an appropriate place for the insertion of
        ellipses.  One has not left material out.
   A.   You have taken a Hitler statement from one day and
        transposed it to another.
   Q.   We are not talking about transposition.
   A.   You have an left enormous amount of material out there
and
        given a completely misleading impression of the
        discussions which took place.
   Q.   Professor, would you accept that if you quote one
sentence
        from a report, by definition, you are leaving out the
        whole of the rest of the report, and you do not
replace
        the rest of the report with ellipses, is that correct?
   A.   It depends how you do it.  I mean, for example, I
could
        have done in my report, instead of having and indented
        quote with ellipses in, I could have had a number of
        separate quotes as you do here, separated by your own
or
        my own commentary, but the effect is the same.
   Q.   In the case instanced here it would not have worked,
would
        it, because you said "the merchant banks ..." and then
you
        go on using the verb of another sentence.
   A.   Yes, I do not think that what I have left out, had it
been
        put in, would have given what you said, another
        impression, a different meaning.
   Q.   Why do you say that I equate the traditional enemies
of

.          P-60



        free speech with the "Jewish community", in quotation
        marks, when it is quite plain from everything that I
have
        written that they are part of the bundle of people who
try
        to suppress free speech, either by refusing to debate,
or
        by smashing windows, or by putting pressure on
publishers,
        or by inserting filters in the Internet or whatever?
   A.   I have already given my answer to that, the fact that
on
        your website your list of the traditional enemies of
free
        speech includes ----
   Q.   Is entirely Jewish, is entirely Jewish community, is
it?
   A.   90 per cent, I think.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I wish we could find it because, if
Professor
        Evans is right, it is an answer to the question and it
is
        quite an illuminating answer.
   MR IRVING:  I agree, it is.  Would you agree that the
        Australian Government is one of the people listed on
that
        pull down menu?
   A.   I would have to see the list.
   Q.   Would you agree that Cyber Patrol which is a filtering
        system for the Internet Surf Watch?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Until and until we find it, Mr Irving,
this
        is a bit difficult, is it not?
   MR IRVING:  I am trying to put some ideas in your
Lordship's
        mind, that this witness is not accurate when he says
90
        per cent of the representatives on there are.
Obviously
        and finally one further question on this, would you
agree

.          P-61



        that in view of the fact that these particular bodies
are
        the ones who have inflicted most damage on me over the
        last 10 years ----
   A.   Let me just quote, Mr Irving, another quote from page
168
        from a speech you made in the Clarendon Club again,
29th
        May 1992 ----
   Q.   Is this relevant to the questions that we have asked?
   A.   "I never used to believe in the existence of an
        international Jewish conspiracy", you said, "I'm not
even
        sure now if there's an international Jewish
conspiracy.
        All I know is that people are conspiring
internationally
        against me, and they do mostly turn out to be".
   Q.   ...
   A.  "... (drowned out by laughter and applause) which I
think
        it is fairly clear that the next word was going to be
        "Jews".
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I am not able to put bundle E to this
        witness and ask him questions on the documents which
will
        substantiate what I just said in that speech, but
        certainly when we come to submissions which I am going
to
        make, then I will justify that particular element.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not sure why you say you are not  --
--
   MR IRVING:  Because your Lordship has said that this is not
the
        appropriate time to introduce bundle E with the
documents
        on the global endeavour to suppress my rights to
publish
        and write.

.          P-62



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, and the reason I said was that it
seemed
        to me that the point went to the damage that you say
you
        suffered as a result of what you say are libels.  That
is
        something you can deal with in your evidence or in
        submissions.  But if you are challenging -- but, you
see,
        it is coming in a slightly different context.  I think
        really, and when one gets to the bottom of it, it is
        further evidence -- I think this is the thrust of what
        Professor Evans is saying at the moment -- of an
        anti-semitic attitude.
   MR IRVING:  I agree, if left alone.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  On that, you are entitled to cross-
examine.
        I hope you do not understand that one document may be
        relevant on two issues.  On one issue ----
   MR IRVING:  I will not use the licence that your Lordship
has
        given me.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  On any reliance that Professor Evans
places
        on particular documents as showing your anti-Semitism,
you
        are perfectly entitled -- I make this absolutely clear
--
        to cross-examine.  So if you want to show him that
        document from your bundle E, then please do, or your
clip
        E.  It has not become a bundle yet, has it?
   MR IRVING:  It is quite substantial.  Do you have bundle a
        bundle E in front of you?  That is how big it is.  It
has
        been quite a major conspiracy.  This is only a part of
it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not encouraging you to go right the
way

.          P-63



        through it.  It is simply that if there is any ----
   MR IRVING:  No, my Lord, but I think, firstly, one or two
        general questions.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Page, Mr Irving?
   MR IRVING:  I am going to ask him one or two general
questions
        first to set the scenery.  (To the witness):  Witness,
is
        it your opinion that that remark you just quoted is
        evidence of an anti-semitic state of mind?
   A.   Sorry, which remark was this?
   Q.   You one that you decided to read out about the
        international conspiracy.
   A.   Conspiracy, yes.
   Q.   Is criticism of Jewish people or community permitted
for
        whatever reason?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We had this yesterday.  I do not think we
        need to traverse that ground again.
   A.   Of course.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  When I say "yesterday", I mean Thursday.
   MR IRVING:  If you are shown scattered evidence of a
concerted
        endeavour by representatives of that community to
abrogate
        my rights to write and publish, over a period of, say,
25
        years, around the world, would you be satisfied that
that
        was a justified comment to make in those conditions?
   A.   Well, that is a very hypothetical question.  In order
to
        be -- I mean, I am constitutionally disinclined to
believe
        in international conspiracies, and it would take a
very

.          P-64



        great deal to persuade me that there was an
        internationally orchestrated conspiracy of this kind.
It
        is the belief in an international Jewish conspiracy is
a
        central element, in my view, of the most extreme forms
of
        anti-Semitism.
   Q.   You talk about an international Jewish conspiracy, you
are
        just talking about the kind of protocols of a Zion
        conspiracy, are you, or is one entitled to believe in
a
        specific endeavour to achieve a certain aim, namely to
        silence David Irving as being a particularly dangerous
        historian?  Is that an acceptable concept in your
mind?
        Can you believe there is such an endeavour ----
   A.   I do not myself believe there is such an endeavour,
no.
   Q.   If ----
   A.   But I have to say that it has not been a part of my
task
        to investigate whether there has or not.  I am not
        speaking, in other words, as an expert when I say
that.
   Q.   My Lord, I am wondering what use it is going to be to
put
        these documents piecemeal to this witness.  I do not
think
        it is at this point.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  None at all.  I mean, his position is
very
        clear.  He does not believe that there is an
international
        Jewish conspiracy.  Therefore, he thinks that when you
        talk of one, you are displaying evidence of anti-
semitism.
        That is the end of it as far as this witness goes, I
        think.

.          P-65



   MR IRVING:  Yes.  As long as your Lordship appreciates that
the
        time will come when I will justify whatever remarks
        I made.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Absolutely.
   MR IRVING:  The only problem is we have a rather unruly
        witness, I think, who ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, that is not an appropriate comment at
        all.
   MR IRVING:  Well, I think it was not necessary really for
him
        to have read out that passage if he was not prepared
        really to be cross-examined on it in depth on his own
        knowledge.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, it happened.  It was not unruly
        behaviour.
   A.   Thank, my Lord.
   MR IRVING:  Do you accept that this phrase "the enemies of
free
        speech" to which the full phrase applies, "the
traditional
        enemies" includes governments, political groups,
trades
        unions and others as well the Jewish community leaders
and
        other organizations?
   A.   Sorry, where is the passage then where you say that?
Are
        we back to the website again?
   Q.   No, I am back to your reference in that paragraph, to
        paragraph 2.5.4 to "the Jewish community" which you
now
        admit is a phrase that I do not use.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Have we got the reference in the website?

.          P-66



   MR IRVING:  Paragraph 2.5.4, my Lord, of his report: "Irving
        believes that there is an international campaign
        orchestrated by the 'Jewish community' ('our traditional
        enemies')" as though there is an equation between the two,
        an equation, shall we say?
   A.   Well, Mr Irving, you do in your speeches repeatedly refer
        to "our traditional enemies", and I think it is clear, in
        my judgment, that by "our traditional enemies" you mean,
        essentially, the Jews.

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