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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts/day017.21


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day017.21
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   This, I think there is no dispute about this, announces
        the starting of the journeys of 5,000 Jews a day from
        Warsaw to Treblinka and twice a week of 5,000 Jews from an

.          P-186



        unpronounceable Polish word.
   A.   Schemeshall.
   Q.   To Belzec, is that right?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And again the appellation or classification is, is it
not,
        on the front page, Geheim?
   A.   It is Geheim.
   Q.   A mere Geheim for that one.  Just by way of contrast,
we
        can look at Wolff's reply, which is 99C, 13th August
        1942,.  This is not a Nuremberg document.  This looks
like
        a copy of an original, does it not?  Have you got 99C?
   A.   Yes.  We have the initials on this, but it is not
clear.
        I am not sure whether this is in the files of the
person
        who received it, or the person who sent it I assume
this
        is in fact in Wolff's file because that is I think
where
        these documents come from.
   Q.   It may be.  The only thing we can see about this is
that
        there is no Geheim, still less a Geheimerreichssacher
.
        The only thing you can see in the box at the top of
the
        page is a Gothic AR.  Do you see that?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   What does this series of documents that we have looked
at,
        and I can tell you in the file there are lots of other
        fairly sinister documents which have no security
        classification at all, what does that tell you about
the
        classification Geheim as used on documents of this
kind?

.          P-187



   A.   That there are many documents referring to the
workings of
        the Final Solution and deportation and killing that do
not
        have a high secrecy rating.
   Q.   Finally -- I know this has been laborious -- what is
        your reaction then to the suggestion that the
        classification, a mere classification of Geheim, on
the
        Muller order or message to the Einsatzgruppen?  It is
        suggested it is not a document of any importance.
   A.   That would not be a persuasive document.
   Q.   Now, this will be slightly disorderly, not in any
sense a
        criticism of Mr Irving, simply because I track his
        cross-examination in my questions to you.  Are you
        familiar, I am talking now about numbers, with
something
        called the Korherr report of 23rd March 1943?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So as to save us all getting it out, it is noted in
some
        detail in Mr Irving's book Hitler's War, in the 1977
        edition, at pages 503 to 4.  The numbers it apparently
        gave----
   MR IRVING:  My Lord we have not raised Korherr report in
the
        examination.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, but there was an issue about numbers.
   MR RAMPTON:  It has to do with the cross-examination about
        numbers, scale.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If it casts light on that issue, it does
not
        matter whether it has been referred to or whether it
has

.          P-188



        not.
   MR RAMPTON:  It has to do with numbers in the East.  I can
give
        you the numbers.  Numbers given for people subjected
to
        Sonderbehandlung before it was edited.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you, Mr Rampton, very quickly remind
me
        who Korherr is?
   MR RAMPTON:  He was Himmler's statistician.  Is that right?
   A.   Correct.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I had forgotten that.
   MR RAMPTON:  He is Dr Rickard Korherr, he is an anorak and
he
        crunches numbers for Himmler.  Anyhow, the numbers he
        gave, if you remember, I will read them out, are for
        people deported from the eastern provinces subjected
to
        Sonderbehandlung 1,274,166; for people in the
Warthegau,
        and this is at the 23rd March 1943, 145,301, making a
        grand total of 1,419,467.  Now, as at that date, 23rd
        March 1943, do those numbers seem surprising to you?
   A.   No.  If anything, I would have thought they would have
        been slightly higher, because at that point in these
        regions the first sweep through the ghettoes has
already
        taken place, so this is a very cautious estimate.
   Q.   By this date, speaking from your general knowledge of
the
        subject and your detailed knowledge, end of March 43,
        roughly speaking, how many people do you think have
been
        Sonderbehandelt in the three Reinhardt camps?
Roughly.
   A.   Roughly.  I would say that would be the lower estimate
and

.          P-189



        it might be 100 or 200,000 higher.  Basically, the
        question is how many Polish Jews do we still know are
in
        other places and they are in the work camps in Lublin,
        there is still 50 to 60,000 in the Warsaw ghetto.
They
        have not liquidated the remnant ghettoes.  So, when
they
        made the first sweep, they would take between 70, 80,
90
        per cent and there would be remaining then in the
ghettoes
        a smaller group that would be left for work.  Then the
        sweep through those ghettoes came in 43.  So most of
the
        Polish Jewry has been destroyed but there is still a
        segment that has not.
   Q.   I was going to ask you that as my final question on
this
        part of numbers.  We saw that Hans Frank estimated
between
        2 and a half and 3 and a half million Jews or people
with
        Jewish connections on 16th September 1941.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Is it known how many Jews were left in Poland by the
end
        of the war?
   A.   First, I should say those who have looked at real
        statistics and not Frank talking off the top of his
head
        would not accept the 2.5 to 3.5 in the
        Generalgouvernment.  I should say in Poland the pre
1941,
        that is the German share of Generalgouvernment and to
the
        West, I believe German demographers who made reports
        thought it was close to 2 million Polish Jews who were
        there.  Galicia has another 500,000.  Bialystok I
believe

.          P-190



        has 200,000 or 300,000, and then of course the unknown
        question is just how many managed to flee.  And of
those
        who fled were they then killed in White Russia or the
        Ukraine?
   Q.   I am coming to some fleeing along the line because we
had
        that yesterday in report number 81, I think. What
shall we
        say then? 3 million?  We are talking about Warthegau,
        Generalgouvernment, Bialystok and Galicia in the
        southeast.  Total 3 million? Three and a half?
   A.   I would say that the prewar population has been
estimated
        about 3.3 million for all of Poland but in terms of
the
        Generalgouvernment, Galicia, Bialystok, that would
leave
        us I think around 3.
   Q.   Can I repeat the question?  You are quite right not to
        adopt Frank's figure and to give us what one might
call a
        real figure.  Has anybody done work to estimate how
many
        Jews were left in this area of Europe after the war?
   A.   This is the difficult question because you had a
constant
        flow of Jews who survived fleeting from Poland to
Germany
        so you always have a moving target.
   Q.   They flowed westward as well, did they?
   A.   After the war they fled westward.  Most of the
immigration
        to Palestine came in fact via Germany.  Jews returning
        from hiding who came back to Polish towns felt very
        insecure in the atmosphere, where it was feared they
would
        be reclaiming their property and this kind of thing,
and

.          P-191



        so they moved out of Poland very quickly.
   Q.   So population lost figures are not necessarily a very
        reliable means to an accurate answer?
   A.   We get an approximate figure by subtracting the
postwar
        from the prewar to get an approximate number of Polish
        casualties.  So we generally say out of 3.3 million
        probably 3 million were murdered and 300,000 survived,
but
        those are rough figures.
   Q.   Yes.  I am only asking for what you Americans call
ball
        park figures.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are they worth anything, these ball park
        figures?
   A.   Yes, I think those are accurate as ball park figures,
but
        they could easily be off 100 thousand on either side,
        I would think.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
   A.   Where the ball park figures are very uncertain is for
the
        Soviet Union.
   Q.   Now I am afraid I shall need some help from people in
        court.  This has to do with three different things
that
        arose during your cross-examination, Professor.  The
first
        thing is to go back, if you will, to 19A in the
Browning
        document section of file L1, which is tab 7.  Please
could
        somebody find the Professor file H1(vii) please?  That
        file hunting can stop now because Miss Rogers has done
the
        trick with a little file of documents which can go
into

.          P-192



        this section.  I would like to start with the Muller
        message of 1st August 1941, the first sentence of
which
        says something like this, does it not, Professor:
Running
        reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen in the East
are
        to be placed, or will be placed, before the Fuhrer
from
        here"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Yes.  I am sorry about my translation.  That is
roughly
        what it says, is it not?  Then can you have a look,
        please, at what I think is probably the first of the
        documents in that little clip, which is the situation
        report number 80 dated 11th September 1941?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  In English?
   MR RAMPTON:  This is an English translation.  The German is
        there too and I shall need to ask you about that in a
        moment.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I am unhappy about this introduction
of
        documents in this way when I have no chance to re-
examine
        on them.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You will be offered the opportunity to
follow
        up any new points, but this is entirely legitimate
        re-examination.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Because it arises in relation to a topic
that
        you have cross-examined on.
   MR RAMPTON:  Indeed.  It arises, if I may say so, in
relation

.          P-193



        to three topics.  It arises in relation to what
        information Hitler was being given, about which the
        Professor was cross-examined.  It arises in relation
to
        the disappearing Jews that ran across the Urals, which
we
        had yesterday, and it arises in relation to the
        translation given by Mr Irving for Hitler's table talk
on
        25th October 1941, where he translates the word
        "Schrecken" as "rumour", if I have the right German,
but
        anyhow he gives "public rumour" as the translation.
So
        all three of those points arise from these documents.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  Can I ask to you look at report number 80 in
        English, September 11th 1941.  Have you got that one?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Good.  The second paragraph read as follows.  I ask
you to
        note the words carefully.  "The rumour that the
Germans
        shoot to kill all the Jews has advantages.  This is
        probably the reason why all the time the EK's
encounter
        fewer Jews.  Thus it should be noted that everywhere
more
        than 70 to 90 per cent of the original local Jews have
        fled.  In contrast to the past this concerns not only
        those Jews who once held influential positions".  This
        comes I think from Einsatzgruppen C, which had which
area
        under its jurisdiction?
   A.   Ukraine.
   Q.   Then, just in passing, please note the other side of
the

.          P-194



        page, which has a 129 at the bottom, "Notwithstanding
that
        those people had, as it were, done a bunk, we still
find
        something like 30,000 Jews shot by the 11th September
        1941".  Do you see that?
   A.   Yes, at the bottom.
   Q.   I have done the arithmetic for you.
   A.   The Kommandant, he mentions already 23,600, then
        Sonderkommando A had reached a figure of 7,000 so the
        cumulative is 30,000.
   Q.   31,000, something like that, and notwithstanding that
some
        had been able, most had been able, to get away, they
still
        found 23,600 which they managed to shoot in three
        days yes.
   Q.   Now I would like you to look at the German of that
        document, if you will, and the relevant passage, if
you
        have this thing, this one is marked Geheim
Reichssacher.
        It looks like a 60 on the front but it is not in fact,
it
        is an 80, and you can see the date 11th September 1941
on
        the top right hand corner.  Have you got that one?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Can you turn to page 9, please, and look at the last
        paragraph on the page?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It reads: (German - document not provided) Please
        translate that for me.
   A.   It turns out to be beneficial.  The rumour turns out
to be

.          P-195



        beneficial, that all the Jews are shot by the Germans.
   Q.   If you were asked to translate the word "rumour" into
        English, what word would you use?
   A.   Well gerucht would be the common one.
   Q.   Finally this, and do you still have Dr Longerich's
report
        up there with you?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Could you turn to page 59?

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