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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts/day015.10


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day015.10
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   In other words, literally true but, as a matter of
        reality, a false declaration.  Do you agree?
   A.   Yes, but no attempt had been made to conceal the fact that
        I had those glass plates.  In Munich, for example, I took
        them into the printing room in the basement, showed them
        to the staff there, had them properly printed by the staff
        there.  While I was in Munich I then had two of the
        pages -- I am sorry, do I have your attention?
   Q.   Yes.  Sorry.
   A.   While I was in Munich I had two of pages sent upstairs to
        the Institute and asked them:  Will you please verify
        these pages I have obtained from Moscow.  I also
        simultaneously sent two pages to the German Federal
        archives in Koblenz and asked them to verify the
        handwriting as well. So I made not the slightest attempt

.          P-84

        to conceal that I had those plates.
   Q.   Except from the Russians?
   A.   Except from Russians.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What Tatiana's response when you revealed
        that you had actually removed them from the archive?
   A.   I then wrote the declaration, my Lord, saying that
        everything that had been removed the archives, using, so
        to speak, the passive voice, was back and that nothing was missing.
   Q.   But was she shocked and horrified?  That is what I am
        really getting at.
   A.   No, because, of course, they had allowed my to.  They knew
        perfectly well they had allowed me to take plates out as
        well.  So when I gave her that statement which was really
        the statement she was asking for, and if you read on, my
        Lord -- I am not sure if it is continued -- she then told
        me a few minutes later at 2.05 p.m. that they were most
        grateful for this, as this was an allegation that had come
        from Munich.  In other words, my rivals had ratted on me
        and had sent a fax to Moscow saying, "He has got some of
        the plates".
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, I believe his Lordship may not have
        quite got the whole of the picture.  One plate was removed
        and hidden for overnight?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Taken overnight and put back.  You did not have permission

.          P-85



        for that?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Did you have permission to take two plates which were
        later replaced?
   A.   Two and two.  They gave us permission to take two and
two,
        so we took out four plates with permission.
   Q.   Yes, they did not give you permission to take plates
back
        to England for testing?
   A.   No.
   Q.   And Tatiana never knew about the first plate and she
never
        knew (because you did not tell her) about the trip
those
        plates made to England and back?
   A.   No.
   Q.   Right, thank you.
   A.   But all this, of course, is the subject of a formal
        written admission which I made to you in this case
over a
        year ago.  So we could have spared a lot of this time.
   Q.   I am grateful.
   A.   It is not really material in the issue anyway, in my
        submission.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, are you aware of serious
concern
        in archival circles that you might have significantly
        damaged the plates when you had them copied without
        archival permission?
   A.   This is the allegation made in the book.  We are not
going
        to be able to test that allegation because we will not

.          P-86



        have the chance of -- I have not seen any evidence put
in
        to that effect.
   Q.   I am asking you whether you are aware of any?
   A.   No, I am not aware of it, my Lord.  We now hear that
the
        Russian archivists are not going to be called either.
So
        it is going to be very difficult to establish the
truth of
        that allegation.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I see the force of that.
   A.   But I shall try to lead evidence when my time comes to
the
        effect that I have benefited the community of
historians
        rather than having disadvantaged them.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, for the moment at least, until we get
        back, if we do, to right-wing extremism perhaps next
week,
        that concludes my cross-examination at the moment.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I just ask you because it is
something
        that went through my mind in fact this morning about
        Dresden?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The position on Dresden is that there is
        quite a lot of material on it.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  It is all in that file.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  We really spent, I am probably
wrong
        about this, but it seemed to me that we really spent
most
        of the time on Tagesbefehl 47.  There is a good deal
more
        and I just wondered again what the position in
relation to
        Professor Evans' other points on Dresden is.

.          P-87



   MR RAMPTON:  Well, again, if Mr Irving wishes to challenge
        Professor Evans, that no doubt will be flooding back
into
        the arena.  For my part, again, one has to make
judgments
        in a case of this magnitude.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  I quite understand.
   MR RAMPTON:  Or we are going to be here for ever.  I am, I
am
        afraid, not one of those advocates who takes every
point
        under the sun in the hope that something will come
out.
        If there are points on Evans' report that I have not
        taken, it is because I have made a deliberate decision
not
        to.
   A.   I shall certainly be cross-examining Evans on matters
        relating to Dresden and putting documents to him.
   MR RAMPTON:  Might I enquire, before I sit down, through
your
        Lordship of Mr Irving how long he expects that his
        cross-examination of Professor Evans might be?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Evans or Browning?
   MR RAMPTON:  Evans.  Both actually, because I need to
schedule
        both of them.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do you want to go back to your other
role?
                   < (The witness stood down)
   MR IRVING:  I now wear my other hat and say that, in view
of
        the revelation today that the defence are not
proposing to
        call Professors Levin and Eatwell, a lot of the
        cross-examination that would have fallen on them will
now
        fall on Professor Evans, who relied in part on their

.          P-88



        expert reports.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You are perfectly entitled to cross-
examine
        any of the experts on anything subject to their
        entitlement to say, "I have not a clue and I do not
know
        about that".
   MR IRVING:  I can only do that of course if they are
present.
        I do not propose to subpoena them because I do not
suppose
        that would have much point.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You cannot do that for all sorts of
reasons
        but there is no reason why you should not cross-
examine
        Professor Evans about what is said in the other
experts'
        reports that I am aware of anyway.
   MR IRVING:  I can put to Professor Evans the documents that
        I would have been putting to Professors Levin or
Eatwell.
        It is an unsatisfactory state of affairs but it also
means
        inevitably that Professor Evans had better check into
a
        hotel for some length of time.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Shall we take them one at a time?
Browning
        we have on Monday.  His report is quite short, which
is a
        virtue.
   MR IRVING:  Browning has many enemies around the world who
have
        been funding me with material with which to challenge
him.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  How long is the challenge going to take?
   MR IRVING:  Two days for Professor Browning, I think.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is Monday and Tuesday.  Then Evans
        next?

.          P-89



   MR IRVING:  Yes.  February 7th we have probably half an
hour or
        one hour of Sir John Kegan.
   MR RAMPTON:  Maybe Mr Irving would like to take Sir John
Kegan
        first before we start on Browning?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I would think that is better.
   MR IRVING:  That would make far more sense.
   MR RAMPTON:  Browning for two days, which brings us to the
end
        of Tuesday, perhaps the beginning of Wednesday.  Then
        Mr Irving's day or whatever he needs to prepare, which
        would be Wednesday.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Start Professor Evans on Thursday.
   MR RAMPTON:  I would provisionally schedule Professor Evans
for
        Thursday.  That also has, from Mr Irving's point of
view,
        the convenience that he then has three days off if he
is a
        bit behind in prep, as some of us sometimes are, to
get
        the ball rolling again on the following Monday.
   MR IRVING:  That is quite right.  It sounds admirable.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What you have not yet answered is the
enquiry
        about how long you are likely to cross-examine
Professor
        Evans for?
   MR IRVING:  I shall have to reschedule my thinking on that
        because I shall have now to go through my two filing
        cabinet drawers full of stuff that I was going to use
        against the other two and put it into the Evans slot.
So
        it will be, I would say, probably four days.
   MR RAMPTON:  That is very helpful.  That takes us to
Wednesday

.          P-90



        16th, I think.  A day off will be the Thursday but, if
I
        schedule Dr Longerich for Friday 18th, there is a risk
        that he will not be needed because Professor Evans
does
        not finish until Thursday.
   MR IRVING:  Longerich is based in England, is he not?
   MR RAMPTON:  He is partly based in England and partly in
        Munich.  If your Lordship would like me to, I will
        provisionally schedule him for Friday 18th, subject to
        Thursday being a clear day.  If it is not, then we can
        bring him on Monday of the following week.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is kind of the last in the band
anyway.
   MR RAMPTON:  He is the most flexible.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is the last too, is he not?
   MR RAMPTON:  No.  There is Professor Funke, the Berlin
        political scientist.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  We have it mapped out for a
sufficient
        period of time to enable plans to be made.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes we have.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes certainly.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So what now?
   MR RAMPTON:  I am bit sterile about ideas because I do not
have
        further questions on anything else.
   MR IRVING:  You are not going to cross-examine on the
        Adjutants?
   MR RAMPTON:  No.  I think probably I am not going to.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  When you say probably, it is getting
towards

.          P-91



        the time when it has to be certain.
   MR RAMPTON:  If I say I am not going to examine on the
        Adjutants and then I come back next week and say, Oh,
        I would like to cross-examine on the Adjutants, I
foresee
        a problem.  I prefer to leave it in the air, although
the
        air in that particular balloon, if I do not do it now,
is
        probably going to be fairly restricted.  Can I put it
like
        that?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  I think that is right really.
   MR RAMPTON:  I well understand the problem.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I know you have had quite a task too.
   MR RAMPTON:  If I do not take the opportunity now I may
have a
        problem, I well understand, in trying to find another
way.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not going to make a ruling one way
or
        the other at the moment.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am grateful for that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:   I do not think it is a bad thing from
        Mr Irving's point of view or, to be honest, from my
point
        of view if we have a short day today because I have
fallen
        a bit behind, too.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am not only slightly behind, I am, like
        Mr Irving and no doubt your Lordship, quite tired as
well
        so I would not at all mind.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, does it not really suit you
quite
        well that we should have a short day?
   MR IRVING:  It does indeed, my Lord.  I have a business to run

.          P-92

        and a family to run.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of course.  So what it comes to is 10.30 on
        Monday.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am grateful.

          (Adjourned until 10.30 on Monday, 7th February 2000)


.          P-93




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