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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts/day015.02


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day015.02
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where?
   MR RAMPTON:  Page 3 of the transcript, my Lord, and page 37 of
        the clip.  I am going to start a little bit before the
        clip extract begins.  If Mr Irving wants to read on or
        have more, than he must do it himself, the whole text is
        there.  I am going to read, Mr Irving, from the sixth line

.          P-9

        in the middle of the page after the words "our national
        heritage", where you say this:
                   "When people ask me about racism I say
'would
        you mind explaining to me what is the difference
between
        racism and patriotism'?  Journalists, television
        interviewers, I've had a great deal of these in the
last 2
        or 3 weeks, you won't notice this of course, because
I've
        been going to the television studios here or in Camden
        town or in Isleworth, speaking by satellite live on
prime
        time Australian television, 3 or 4 times last week.
New
        Zealand television as well because New Zealand always
        picks up what their big brothers do in Australia, and
the
        journalist has said 'Mr Irving, we read in today's
        newspapers that you told the ABC radio" -- that is an
        Australian radio, is it not, Mr Irving, ABC radio?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.  "'That you feel queasy about the immigration disaster
        that's happened to Britain.  Is that your opinion'?
        And I said well yes, I have admit to being born in
England
        in 1938, which was totally different England, I feel
        queasy when I look and see what has happened to our
        country, nobody has stood up and objected to it' and
he
        says, 'well what do you think about black people on
the
        Australian, on the British cricket team then?  How do
you
        feel about that then, the black cricketers'?  So I
said,
        'that makes me even more queasy,".  Pause there,
please,

.          P-10



        Mr Irving.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I am going to read on.  Why does it make you feel
queasy
        that black Englishmen should play cricket for England?
   A.   What is left out here is what is also stated in the
        interview that he then said exactly same question as
you
        and my reply to him on air was, what a pity it is that
we
        have to have blacks on the team and that they are
better
        than our whites.
   Q.   Why is that a pity?
   A.   It is a pity because I am English.
   Q.   Are they not English too?
   A.   Well, English or British, are you saying?
   Q.   I am saying that they are English.  Most of them are
born
        here, just as all the Jews in England were born here,
most
        of them.
   A.   Are we talking about blacks or Jews now?
   Q.   It does not matter.  They are all English.
   A.   The England I was born into it, if you had read
earlier,
        the England I was born into, which is the England I
come
        from and probably the England you come from, although
        probably a few years after mine, was different from
the
        England that exists now.
   Q.   Well, thank goodness.
   A.   When I talk about English, I am talking about the
England
        I came from.

.          P-11



   Q.   When did the Irvings arrive on these shores, Mr
Irving?
   A.   King Robert the Bruce, I think.  We can go back as far
as
        that.
   Q.   Where did they come from?
   A.   Scotland.
   Q.   No.  The Bruces came from France.  They were Normans,
        beastly foreigners.
   A.   The Bruces came from France?
   Q.   Robert the Bruce was a Norman princeling, if you like.
        Where did the Irvings come from?
   A.   What do you mean, where did the Irvings come from?
How
        far back are we going to go?
   Q.   That is the point, is it not?  How far back do you
have to
        go? Does it matter, Mr Irving?
   A.   It does.  You see, what I am saying in this entire
        paragraph is this.  Somebody born in England of 1938,
with
        all the values that I grew up in, grew to respect and
        admire and love, I regret what has happened to our
country
        now.  Sometimes I wish I could go Heathrow Airport and
get
        on a 747 and take a ten hour flight and land back in
        England as it was, as it used to be.  That is what
this
        paragraph is saying.
   Q.   Yes, it is.  It is saying that England has changed in
this
        regrettable respect, that now we have all these black
        people in England.
   A.   One wonderful thing about England, Mr Rampton, you may

.          P-12



        disprove of it, is that privately you are allowed to
have
        your own private thoughts about the way things go,
what
        you would call a state of mind, and my state of mind
is
        that I regret what has happened to the England I grew
up
        in.
   Q.   That, I am afraid, Mr Irving, is characteristic of
people
        that one may properly and legitimately call racist, is
it
        not?
   A.   Or patriotic.  Patriotism is literally respecting the
        country that has been handed to you by your fathers,
by
        your parents.
   Q.   You are proposing ----
   A.   I wish you would not interrupt me when I am speaking.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Finish your answer.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry, I had not thought you had anything
        more to say, I am bound to say.
   A.   You interrupt my flow of oratory.
   MR RAMPTON:  Carry on.
   A.   I do not think there is anything despicable or
        disreputable about patriotism. You wish to call it
racism,
        that is your choice. I call it patriotism.  Respect
and
        love of the country that I grew up, the England I was
born
        into.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can we just go back to the cricketers?
Is
        the regret you feel about them playing for England or
        wherever because of the colour of their skin?

.          P-13



   A.   No, it is, I think -- I feel sorry that my England was
        unable to provide enough good cricketers, if I can put
it
        like that.
   MR RAMPTON:  So the answer to his Lordship's question is
yes,
        is it not?
   A.   No, it was not.
   Q.   You regret the fact ----
   A.   The answer was as I stated it.
   Q.   Don't you interrupt either, please, Mr Irving.  You
regret
        the fact, do you not, that there are not enough good
white
        cricketers to keep out the black cricketers?
   A.   Well, again this is probably a tendential answer, but
I am
        not very well up on cricket and I am not a great
        cricketing fan.  This is an example that I am not very
        positive about.
   Q.   Do you ever watch the English football team or any of
the
        English clubs play football?
   A.   If I do not watch cricket, I certainly do not watch
        football.
   Q.   Do you propose that the numerous black people who play
for
        first class football clubs and for England in this
country
        are not patriotic, Mr Irving?
   A.   What I am probably saying is this, is that it is
        regrettable that blacks and people of certain races
are
        superior athletes to whites.  Now, if this is a racist
        attitude, then so be it.  It is a recognition that
some

.          P-14



        people are better at different things.  And perhaps
you
        may wish to legislate that state of affairs away, you
may
        wish to describe it as despicable, but it is a
recognition
        and it is an objective statement about the way things
        are.  They run faster, they jump higher and there is
no
        disputing that fact.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Why is it regrettable?
   A.   Well, it is regrettable in as much as it is now
described
        as being a racist attitude, and there is disreputable
to
        point out that there are differences between the
species.
   Q.   You would like it to be the position, would you not,
as
        with the National Alliance, that this country was a
pure
        white Aryan race of people who went back at least as
far
        as Robert the Bruce, for what difference it makes,
would
        you not?
   A.   Well, you heard what I said about taking off in that
747
        and landing back in England as it was, the England of
the
        blue lamp and Jack Warner and when there was no
chewing
        gum on the pavements, and all the rest of it.
   Q.   I will just finish.
   A.   It is just an old fashioned attitude, I think.  You
will
        probably find that 90 per cent of Englishmen born at
the
        same time as me think the same.  That is what
democracy is
        about.
   Q.   I am sure you have not been standing with a clipboard
in
        Oxford Street either, Mr Irving?

.          P-15



   A.   You will have heard the word "probably", on the
balance of
        probabilities.
   Q.   I will just finish this, if I may, and then I want to
pass
        to one more.  Where was I?  "'How do you feel about
that
        then, the black cricketers?'  So I said, 'That makes
me
        even more queasy ...' and so he says right, and I say,
         'No, hang on, it makes me feel queasy but I would
like to
        think we've got white cricketers who are as good as
the
        black ones' and he couldn't climb out of that, you
see"?
   A.   There you are.  That is precisely what I just said.
   Q.   Yes, Mr Irving, but I do not myself see -- perhaps you
can
        enlighten me -- why the journalist should have
anything to
        climb out of.
   A.   Because he was wanting me to express an attitude that
the
        blacks are in some way inferior to us.  They are
different
        from us but not inferior.
   Q.   Then he says, you see, he has rather not had anything
to
        climb out of, he has picked up on what you said, he
says:
         "'So what you're advocating then is a kind of race
        hatred'."  He was absolutely right, was he not?
   A.   Well, he obviously had his agenda of questions.  He
        probably had them written down on his clipboard in
front
        of him, "Ask him about race hatred.  Use the word
'race'.
        Keep calling him a racist'.  This is the way
journalists
        keep their jobs, is it not?  They are politically
        correct.  They know the questions to ask and nobody
fires

.          P-16



        them.  I have never been politically correct and I am
not
        ashamed of it.
   Q.   "So I said, 'Before I answer your questions, would you
        tell me what you believe in, as a journalist, an
        Australian journalist.  Do you believe in mixing up
all
        God's races into one super, kind of mixed up race?
Are
        you in favour of racial intermarriage and racial
mixing?'
        and he said, 'Well, I believe in multi-culturalism'."
Do
        you believe, Mr Irving, in intermarriage between
races, as
        you call it?
   A.   I have precisely the same attitude about this as the
        Second Defendant does.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Tell us what your attitude is.
   MR RAMPTON:  Tell us what her attitude then is.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, or yours.
   A.   I believe in God keeping the races the way he built
them.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, I see.
   A.   And I will be putting evidence about the Second
        Defendant's position on this in court later on.
   Q.   Although he is remorselessly ----
   A.   I beg your pardon?
   Q.   Sorry, although he is remorselessly pursuing his Final
        Solution to kill off all the blacks in Africa?
   A.   In his infinite wisdom.
   Q.   In his infinite wisdom.
   A.   That is not exactly what I said in the previous diary

.          P-17



        passage.  That is a total manipulation of that
passage.
   Q.   One more and then we can pass on to Moscow, Mr Irving.
        There is a tab 3A in this file, K4.   Your Lordship
will
        find this, I hope, on page 37A of the clip.  This is,
I
        think, the Clarendon Club speech?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  My clip does not have a 37A.
   MR RAMPTON:  It has not got a 37A?  It is a very short
        passage.  I have mine at 37A.  May I ask your Lordship
to
        use the file which has got a tab 3A -- at least mine
has.
        Your Lordship has a 3A tab.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  A tab, yes, but not in the clip.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, I am sorry, that is my fault. I have made
my
        own new number?
   A.   Can I say here, of course, that when the tables are
turned
        and it is my turn to cross-examine, I shall be putting
in
        any amount of evidence which completely refutes the
notion
        that I have racist attitudes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is a perfectly proper thing to say.
   A.   The reason I say that, of course is ----
   Q.   You will have your turn, Mr Irving, of course.
   A.   Yes, but in the meantime, the world turns and
newspapers
        appear.
   MR RAMPTON:  That is too complicated for me.  I cannot
follow
        that.  Could you turn to -- this is the Clarendon Club
in
        1990?
   A.   Yes.

.          P-18


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