Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day014.07 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 Q. My Lord, what I am going to do now is refer to three documents -- they are different documents -- which Mr Irving told us in evidence that he had never seen. The first one is the letter from Muller, the head of the Gestapo, the order rather, to the Einsatzgruppen, all four of them, of 1st August 1941, which says, in effect, that the Fuhrer will be getting continuous reports about the work of the Einsatzgruppen in the East. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where is it, just in case it is necessary to look at it? MR RAMPTON: My Lord, it is in Professor Browning's documents. It is referred to by him. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That will do. MR RAMPTON: On page 7 of his report. I think my memory is that he has written it out in translation. Unfortunately, I do not have it here. It is actually in H4 (ii). MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that, unless Mr Irving wants it dug out, this will probably do. MR RAMPTON: I have given a sort of a translation. A. I am not normally very picky, my Lord, but in this particular case it would be nice sometime to see the . P-56 original or a facsimile of it. MR RAMPTON: I agree. I do believe that Mr Irving should be given H4 (ii). That is actually Dr Longerich's documents but it is the same document. A. It is a document from the Russian archives? Q. Yes, and it is the first sentence of the writing which I am interested in. It is footnote 143, in handwriting at the bottom right hand corner of the page. Do you see it? It is a copy. A. Yes. Q. It says so. Did I more or less translate the first sentence correctly? A. Oh dear. I can only say "oh dear" about this document. Where does it come from? Q. I can tell you that, Mr Irving. It has been available in the Munich Institute of Contemporary History IFZ with the reference number FA 213/3 since before 1982. A. That does not tell us so much about the provenance though, does it? Q. Why? What is the matter with it? A. Well, I mean, normally you would have either a Nuremberg document number in the top right hand corner or some indication of provenance and it would not contain German spelling mistakes. Q. Why not? Do soldiers not make mistakes when they write, or civil servants? Goodness me. We have spotted several . P-57 already in the original documents in this case, have we not? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you saying that this not an authentic document? MR RAMPTON: Another fake, I think. He does not like it so it is another fake. A. I am seeing this for the first time, of course, but I noticed straightaway at the bottom line that interestingly it does use the SS runes after the word "Muller", which implies that it is a wartime document. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I am looking at the wrong document. A. My Lord, it is footnote 143. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see. There are two 143s. MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, it is a copy. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is page 295? MR RAMPTON: That is right, yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is another footnote 143. MR RAMPTON: I am sorry about that. Both Dr Longerich and Professor Browning make reference to this. A. It may be that I am more picky than they are when I am dealing with what looks like a duplicated copy of a document. Q. Never mind. It is a what? A. It looks like a duplicated copy of a document, in other words on an old fashioned Gestetner duplicator, so to speak, but it has the SS runes on it after the name . P-58 Muller, which implies, or should be taken to imply, that it is a wartime document rather than a postwar one. Q. I would guess that it is. Why not? A. What worries me is the word "verschlussel" in the fifth line, which is neither fish nor fowl in German. It is "verschlussel". It is not "verschlusselt," it is not "verschlusselung". It is a word that does not exist by itself. Q. Well tell me what it means. A. If it was completed it could be to be coded or cyphered, encyphered, but it is just, as I said, wrong. Q. Mr Irving, suppose that there was an N instead of an L, would that make a difference? A. It would have to be after the L. It is a strange error, I would say that. If it is genuine, then the next thing I would point to, of course, is the fact that it has a very low classification, just G, secret. Q. Mr Irving, I am not asking you about the document. A. All right. Q. When I asked you about this document before, it was ages ago, you denied ever having seen it. A. Now I am seeing it for the first time, yes. Q. So you say. A. I beg your pardon. I am on oath and, if I say I am seeing this for the first time, then I am seeing it for the first time. . P-59 Q. Mr Irving, you have said many things on oath which I simply do not accept, so we can get past that childish stage of this interrogation. A. I think this is probably the time to have it out. Where you think I am lying on oath, then you should say so. MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is saying so. MR RAMPTON: I am doubting it, Mr Irving. A. My Lord, he is not saying when. He is just alleging in broad terms. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, that is not right. Let me make it clear to you. MR RAMPTON: Will you please wait. I do not do that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are all talking at once. Mr Rampton, I was talking. MR RAMPTON: I am sorry. It might be valuable if your Lordship reminded Mr Irving of my duty. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I am going to. I think it is fair to say that every time Mr Rampton is challenging the truth or credibility of what you are saying, he has made that clear in his questions. A. He is saying that he does not believe ---- Q. Please wait. If you think that he is not making his case clear at any point, then you are entitled to say, what are you asking me, Mr Rampton? What are you putting to me? But on this particular document, I would like to know whether you do or do not challenge its authenticity. . P-60 A. I think for the purpose of today I will accept that it is genuine, but it has these blemishes to which I may refer later on. But to suggest that I have seen this document before is inaccurate and untrue. MR RAMPTON: I have not said that yet, Mr Irving. A. You said "so you say" and the record shows that. Q. I do say "so you say" because I doubt your answer, and I will tell you precisely now why I doubt it, as I always do, because I am not allowed to make that suggestion unless I have a basis for doing so. It has been in Gerald Fleming's book "Hitler und die endlosung" ever since 1982. A. I have not read that book. Q. You have not read that book? A. It has been sent to me twice by Gerald Fleming, once in English and once in German, and I have not read that book. Q. Are you not interested in books which contain references to documents which focus on your very field of historical activity, that is to say the connection between Adolf Hitler and the endlosung? A. The reason why is because Gerald Fleming and I had a very lively correspondence and he was constantly sending me copies of his latest documents. It is was unlikely there were going to be documents in the book which he had not already sent me months earlier. Q. You told us near the beginning of the case that Gerald . P-61 Fleming has done some very good work on one particular episode, not this. That was Bruns and Altemeyer. A. Yes he corresponded with me about it. You have seen my entire file of correspondence with Gerald Fleming and you know exactly how detailed that correspondence is. It is about 4 inches thick. Q. Do you possess a copy of "Hitler und die endlosung"? A. Yes, two copies. Q. And you have never looked at them? A. I may have looked for a specific document in it. I seem to remember looking to see -- that is right. When I wrote my web site page on General Bruns, I checked up on the spellings of the names and the correct identification of Altemeyer and people like that, and I used it as a reference work. I looked in the index, in other words, for Bruns and Altemeyer and got the data out of that, one or other of the editions. Q. How much time have you spent in the Munich archive, the IFZ if that is what it is? A. Until I was banned in 1993? I was there from 1963 for 30 years. Q. If Gerald Fleming found it in the Munich archive before his book was published while he was writing it, it was published in 1982 and you spent time in that archive, I know not how many days or hours or weeks, looking for documents about Hitler. Do you expect us to believe that . P-62 you did not come across this document? A. Both. I looked for documents back in 1964 and 1965 and I hired a lady whose name almost certainly will be mentioned later on in today's hearing to do the research for me, to re-research the files for me, looking for material on Adolf Hitler and the final solution, and certainly neither of us came across that document. However, your researchers could have established if I saw that particular file, because the IFZ keeps a detailed log of who sees each file, just as the Public Record Office does. Q. Down the line that may happen, Mr Irving. Now I want to turn to another document, which I find even more puzzling, if I may say so. A. You are implying that the IFZ has a record of my having seen that document, which is untrue. Q. No, I am not implying that at all. I have absolutely no idea. All I would say, if you want me---- A. That was the innuendo of "down the line this may happen", was it not? Q. It may do if we look. That is all that means. All I will say at the moment, if you want me comment, is this, that I do not find your answer very convincing. But that is not my task, it is his Lordship's task. A. I am sorry I do not convince you but it is your duty to come forward with plausible evidence to the court that I . P-63 am lying, and you cannot because I have not seen this document before. Q. You have two copies of Gerald Fleming's book. A. I have two copies of Fleming's book, one in German and one in English. Q. You write about Hitler and his connection with the endlosung. You spent hours in the Munich archive and this is a key document which you have missed. A. I read the reviews by Tom Bower and by Gordon Craig of Gerald Fleming's book. Tom Bower said that Gerald Fleming has failed to destroy David Irving's central hypothesis, and Gordon Craig said exactly the same. That being so, why should I waste my time reading that book, apart from looking up specific references, because undoubtedly Fleming has done very detailed research, but I am not a Holocaust historian. If I was writing a book about the Holocaust, then no doubt I would consult Fleming. MR JUSTICE GRAY: This does not really go to the Holocaust, does it? It goes to Hitler's knowledge of the shooting by the Einsatzgruppen. A. Yes, but I can only repeat that my attention was never drawn to this document, I never saw it in that book, there is no reason why I should have done. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It has not yet been established there is any evidence you actually saw this although I think the evidence does suggest you had an opportunity to find it. . P-64 MR RAMPTON: I make it quite clear I shall invite---- A. I had an opportunity to find very large numbers of documents, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a different thing, I accept that. A. But I am very well known for not consulting other people's books. If Gerald Fleming had sent me the document as a copy, which I would have expected him to have done, then I would of course have taken it into account.
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