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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts/day013.03


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day013.03
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   If somebody oscillates between 2.8 million and 1.1 million

.          P-18

        under oath, how can you place any reliance whatsoever on
        his other figures?
   A.   I think that there is the issue of how do you calculate
        the figure?  There is one thing.  He had no documents in
        front of him because no record was kept.  He at a certain
        moment tries to reconstruct without having any figures,
        and of course we must remember that Hoess was, in the
        crucial time of the camp's history, Hungarian, actually
        late 43, he was not any more Kommandant of Auschwitz.  He
        left Auschwitz.  He was attached to the inspectorate
in
        Oranienburg.  So he only came back later to Auschwitz.
   Q.   We are only talking about the reliability of his
figures.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, we have to confine this. We
cannot
        have an open ended further cross-examination.  Confine
it
        to the authenticity of the document.
   MR IRVING:  That did go to the authenticity because he
relied
        on Hoess as a source of statistical evidence, my Lord.
        Secondly, is it correct that the version of this
document
        which is in the Auschwitz State museum was provided to
        them by the East German communist authorities?  In
other
        words, not the other way round, as one would expect?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Thank you.
   A.   The version in Auschwitz, but this is the Moscow
version,
        so we are talking here about the Moscow document.  It
is a
        different document.  It is a different object, so to

.          P-19



        speak.  The object means the actual sheet of paper
which
        came from East Germany.
   Q.   The final question is on the question of why the
matter
        has only just recently been raised.  Is it not correct
to
        say that the Moscow archives have only become
available
        for purposes of comparison over the last ten years or
so?
   A.   Yes, that is true.
   MR IRVING:  Thank you very much.  I have no further
questions,
        my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much, Professor.
                     < (The witness stood down)
   MR IRVING:  Your Lordship may have considered that a rather
        useless exercise but, as it is such a crucial
document,
        I thought that we ought to examine it in greater
detail.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I personally think that the issue of
        authenticity of this document is important for the
        purposes of this trial.
   MR IRVING:  It is almost pivotal, along with the roof.
Thank
        you very much.
   MR RAMPTON:  I certainly do not agree that it is pivotal.
It
        may be an important document in some senses.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The challenge to it may be important.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, absolutely.  If I feel the need to meet
that
        challenge beyond what the Professor has said in the
        witness box, I will do so.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The Moscow archive presumably can be, as
it

.          P-20



        were, consulted to see if the document is there.
   MR RAMPTON:  Oh, yes, but, if it was in the Vienna trial in
        1971, I do not know that the Moscow archives have a
lot to
        do with it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What now?  Mr Irving back into the box?
   MR RAMPTON:  Shall I give your Lordship a little plan?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Before you do, can I say something which
        I actually said yesterday?  I think it became called
L2,
        I think my L2 has gone back to you, but, in trying to
go
        through yesterday evening, it really is impossible for
me
        to follow it in the transcript when all I have is
German
        documents, some of which have been partly translated
in
        odd bits of Professor Evans' report.  It is a
nightmare
        exercise.
   MR RAMPTON:  It will not surprise your Lordship to be told
that
        I took that on board.  What I am going to do today
will
        involve no reference to German documents by me.  It
will
        consist of a document prepared with, I have to say,
the
        most extraordinary skill and expedition by Miss Rogers
in
        relation to Dresden.  There is a file of Dresden
        documents.  They are mostly in English.  I shall not
make
        reference to them myself, because they have been
        summarized in the little document that Miss Rogers has
        prepared.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Good.
   MR RAMPTON:  Contrary to my feeling yesterday evening, I am

.          P-21



        going to go to four topics in the aftermath of
        Reichskristallnacht, but I am going to do those,
unless
        again I am pushed by Mr Irving to the German,
exclusively
        from Professor Evans' report.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do think that is easier.  Can I at the
same
        time make this enquiry?  It is important that we are
clear
        for later on.  Looking at Kristallnacht, not the
aftermath
        of Kristallnacht, there are several points made in
Evans
        and Longerich, I think, which I do not think you
        cross-examine to specifically.  It is not a criticism
        obviously, but does that mean they have gone out of
the
        case, or what?
   MR RAMPTON:  It is very difficult.  I am very conscious of
the
        amount of time that this case could take.  That means
I am
        also conscious of the amount of money it could cost my
        clients, never mind court time and the time of all the
        people involved.  I have taken the view, right or
wrong,
        that, if I have three or four, or maybe two or three,
or
        even five or six, dead cert winners, to use a
        colloquialism, in any particular topic, I am not going
to
        spend a lot of time having argy-bargy about minor
points
        with Mr Irving.  I have one more what I regard as dead
        cert winner to finish which is this business about
ND3052
        or ND3051 because I have chased that it and I know the
        answer.  But if your Lordship should take the view at
the
        end of the cross-examination of my expert witnesses
that

.          P-22



        certain points have gone from the case, well, why then
        they have gone, but if Mr Irving should take up with
my
        expert witnesses things I have not cross-examined him
        about, why, then they will come back into the arena.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But at the moment they are not in the
arena.
   MR RAMPTON:  No.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is rather what I thought, but I
think it
        is quite important to be clear about it.
   MR RAMPTON:  If I have missed something out, something
        important, I miss something important and that is just
too
        bad.  But there has to be a sense of proportion in all
of
        this, in my belief.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It might be something -- I have not got
them
        in mind now -- there are some points that I think
Evans
        attaches importance to on Reichskristallnacht which
maybe
        we have not really touched on.
   MR RAMPTON:  I agree there are some things in relation to
        eyewitness testimony.  I am as mistrustful of that in
        general as is Mr Irving, and I prefer the original
        documents, and that is what I did yesterday.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am going back to one other original document
in
        a moment.
   MR IRVING:  I thought there was going to be a complex on
the
        Adjutants we were going to hear about.
   MR RAMPTON:  There may be something about the Adjutants
along

.          P-23



        down the road, but I have not got to that yet.  It is
a
        separate topic.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That clears the air a bit.
   MR RAMPTON:  I have not given thought to what, if any,
        Adjutants I am interested in.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, if you go back we are starting
        off now on Dresden.
   MR RAMPTON:  No.  I am going to finish Reichskristallnacht
and
        then I shall go to Dresden.
                      < MR DAVID IRVING recalled.
                  < Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC,
continued.
   Q.   Your Lordship and the witness will need a document
which
        we dug out yesterday.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I will need my L2 back too, will I not?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, I do not know where it has gone.  (To the
        witness):  Mr Irving, can you please go back to your
        Goebbels book at page 276?  At the bottom of that page
we
        saw yesterday, we are going to read it again, you
write:
         "What of Himmler and Hitler?  Both were totally
unaware
        of what Goebbels had done until the synagogue next to
        Munich's Four Seasons Hotel was set on fire around 1k
        a.m.   Heydrich, Himmler's national chief of police,
was
        relaxing down in the hotel bar, he hurried up to
Himmler's
        room, then telexed instructions to all police
authorities
        to restore law and order, protect Jews and Jewish
        property, and halt any ongoing incidents."  You give
us

.          P-24



        the reference No. 43, you give us the reference for
that
        on page 613, ND3052-PS?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Now please look at the document I have just handed in.
   A.   Well, in fact, there are two sources there.  I have
also
        referenced Karl Wolff.
   Q.   Will you please look at the document I have just
handed
        in?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   That is ----
   A.   3052 -- yes, there is a mistake in the number.
   Q.   You have mistaken the number?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Professor Evans is right?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The correct number is 3051, is it not?
   A.   It is probably 3051.  There may be another one, but
this
        is clearly the wrong one, but I have also referenced
Karl
        Wolff as my source.
   Q.   Can we please look then at what Professors Evans used
as
        the translation of the key part of 3051 at the top?
   A.   Which, of course, I have not referenced.
   Q.   No, you have not.  But, Mr Irving, I suggest that you
had
        it in front of you and you simply made a slip of the
pen
        (as we all can) and called the document 3052 when, in
        fact, it was 3051.

.          P-25



   A.   You may be right, but you may be wrong.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  When you say "you may be wrong", you mean
        there is another document very similar to 3051 which
you
        did in have in front of you?
   A.   My Lord, note 43 also refers to Karl Wolff which is a
        source which I also used.
   Q.   That is another matter.
   A.   I would have to look and see what Karl Wolff said
which
        may very well be the source of that.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, forget Karl Wolff.  You have given
----
   A.   No, because -- I am not going to forget him because he
is
        given in the footnote 43.
   Q.   Mr Irving, you have given 3052 as the reference?
   A.   As one of the references.
   Q.   That is wrong, as you can plainly see from the
document?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It follows, does it not ----
   A.   It was another document.
   Q.   --- that the overlying probability is that you meant
3051
        which is, indeed, a telex from Heydrich at 1.20 a.m.
on
        10th November?
   A.   That is one telex from him at 1.20 yes, but if ----
   Q.   Wait, Mr Irving.
   A.   --- if you look at the time scale, if you look at the
time
        scale, these instructions I am referring to are
unlikely
        to have got into a telex machine at 1. 20 a.m.  It
would

.          P-26



        be closer to 2 a.m. that things like that went out, by
the
        time he has got back to police headquarters.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You say he "hurried up to Himmler's
room"?
   A.   Yes, but they would not have had a telex machine in
        Himmler's hotel room, my Lord.  He would have had to
go to
        the local Gestapo headquarters or telephone
instruction
        for local headquarters and tell them to type a telex
and
        get this kind of thing out.
   Q.   So your suggestion is there is another telex from
        Heydrich?
   A.   Another source.  I am not suggesting it is another
telex.
        I am suggesting it is another source and I have
referenced
        there Karl Wolff.
   MR RAMPTON:  Let us suppose for a moment that a three year-
old
        child will not buy that story, Mr Irving, and compare
what
        301 says of what you wrote in the text, may we?
   A.   Well, shall we do that?
   Q.   Yes, let us look at the top of 263 of Professor Evans'
        report.  The German is printed at the bottom.  So if
you
        want to read the German first, please do.
   A.   "On Himmler's instructions, they were to be sure some
        restrictions placed on the action", is that correct on
the
        foot of page 262?
   Q.   Yes.  That is absolutely right.  Now you see what they
are
        on page 263.
   A.   Yes, I have read that.

.          P-27



   Q.   Now tell me what foundation that provides for your
        assertion that Heydrich's telex was "to protect Jews
and
        Jewish property and halt any ongoing incidents".
   A.   Well, clearly, this is a different message I am
referring
        to.
   Q.   No, Mr Irving.  Clearly, you have deliberately
        misrepresented the effect of this telex from Heydrich.
   A.   No, Mr Rampton.  You are looking at a different
message,
        and you are saying, "This does not look like the one
you
        are quoting" which is just what I am saying.  You are
        right.  It is not the one I am quoting.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where is what you call 3052?  Where
        physically is it?
   A.   My Lord, they have had complete access to all my files
and
        we do not know which signals they have put in and
which
        they have not put in.

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