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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts/day008.27


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day008.27
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20


   MR RAMPTON:  It is not a mortuary.  If it is a gas chamber,
        Mr Irving, and the concentration used is contrary to what
        Mr Fred Leuchter unjustifiably assumed, contrary to its
        being 3,200 parts per million, it is something around
300
        parts per million or, as Mr Beer suggests, 100 parts
per
        million, then any need to pay serious attention to
        ventilation is much reduced, is it not?
   A.   That would be a logical conclusion, yes.
   Q.   It will be a logical conclusion, would it not, that
the
        risk of contamination of water in the sewers is much
        reduced, perhaps to complete insignificance?
   A.   That would be another logical conclusion.
   Q.   It would be a logical conclusion that the need for the
        people administering the poison gas to take what I
might

.          P-51



        call strong security precautions, safety precautions,
is
        much reduced, is it not?
   A.   That would be a logical conclusion to your hypothesis,
        yes.
   Q.   It means, does it not, Mr Irving, that the time which
has
        to be waited before the sonder commander can go in and
get
        the bodies out, whether or not they are wearing gas
masks,
        is much reduced, is it not?
   A.   This would be the logical conclusion of your
hypothesis,
        yes.
   Q.   Above all, it means this, does it not, that the
discovery
        by Mr Leuchter of the small traces of cyanide
compounds in
        material taken from the walls of the alleged gas
chambers
        at crematorium (iii) in Birkenhau is entirely
consistent
        with a low concentration having been used in the first
        place?
   A.   No.
   Q.   Why?
   A.   You have to take various other factors into
        consideration.  It is a totally false logic.  We know
from
        the other documentation that your witness is going to
        present that these buildings had been freshly
constructed,
        they were made of concrete.  You are shaking your
head.
   Q.   Because only one building has been reconstructed.
   A.   Freshly constructed at the time they were put in ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  "Freshly" not "re".

.          P-52



   MR RAMPTON:  I see.
   A.   They were made -- they were raw, they were green
        concrete.  The concrete was still sweating.  You are
        shaking your head.
   Q.   I am shaking my head, Mr Irving, simply because you
are
        plain wrong.  If you had taken the trouble to go to
        Birkenhau, you would have seen on the walls of the
        Leichenkellers in (ii) and (iii) remains, quite
        substantial remains, of a coating on the walls,
plaster or
        cement.
   A.   We shall be producing photographs of the interior of
        Liechenkeller (1) and the other buildings which show
quite
        clearly there is no coating on the walls.
   Q.   Mr Irving, look at it this way.  Suppose that -- some
of
        the coating has fallen off, I quite agree.
   A.   No.  This is the original interior.
   Q.   Mr Irving, I have seen it.  Do not argue with me.
Argue
        with Professor van Pelt.  If you are going to produce
----
   A.   I am providing an answer to your points.  You may not
like
        the answers, but these are the answers you get from
me.
   Q.   Mr Irving, if you are going to produce evidence that
there
        is no coating to be found on any of the remains of
        LiechenKellar (1) in crematoria (ii) and (iii) at
        Birkenhau, I am happy to see it.  I shall admit fault
if
        you are right.  Mr Irving -----
   A.   Can I continue with the point I was making?

.          P-53



   Q.   Yes.
   A.   This is fresh concrete.  Fresh concrete sweats, I
know.
        I have worked in a concrete gang myself for three
years
        with John Lang.  Concrete is very alkaline.  You have
to
        wear gloves when you are working with it unless you
want
        your fingers to end up rotting away.  Hydrogen cyanide
is
        an acid.  They react fiercely, even in small
quantities.
        You would expect to see precisely the kind of chemical
        compounds and changes which would have produced
permanent
        lasting results ----
   Q.   Mr Irving ----
   A.   --- even in small quantity, even in small dosages.
   Q.   (A) not if the walls are coated, and (B) not probably
if
        the concentration is as low as 300 parts per million.
   A.   There are we are in terra incognita ----
   Q.   Well, you are.
   A.   --- Mr Rampton, because we do not know what the
scientific
        qualifications of this particular author are.  We know
all
        about the scientific qualifications of Professor van
        Pelt.  We know about the scientific qualifications of
        other experts in this case.  It would be very
dangerous
        indeed to attach as much weight as you are seeking to
do
        to this critique of forensic examinations by an
anonymous
        correspondent who does not give us any details of his
        chemical or scientific qualifications purely because
he,
        hostile to the Leuchter report, puts in the paragraph
at

.          P-54



        the end saying deeply flawed.  You cannot do that kind
of
        weighing up.  You have to -- yes, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  In a way, you are slightly perverting the
        argument.  I do not mean that in a critical sense.
The
        point that is really being made by the South African
        engineer, Crabtree, is really that the fundamental
premise
        of Leuchter's argument can be, as it were, turned on
its
        head so that really Leuchter's conclusions are
        diametrically wrong.  Is that not what Crabtree is
saying?
   A.   This is what he says, my Lord.  And let me just, if I
can
        just turn the wheel back very slightly and remind you
of
        the last words of my introduction to the Leuchter
report?
        The ball is now in their court.  This report is very
much
        intended to provoke precisely the kind of discussion
which
        is now arising.
   Q.   No, but my trouble with your evidence -- let me make
it
        clear -- is that you are, as it were, criticising
        Crabtree's conclusion that the level would have been
100
        ppm or 300 ppm?
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, this is Beer, not Crabtree, this one.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry.
   MR RAMPTON:  Crabtree is an earlier one.  I may go back to
him.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, but are you criticising Beer's
        conclusion that it would have been 100 to 300 ppm,
when
        really what we should be addressing is whether
Leuchter's
        assumption of 3,200 ppm was a legitimate and sensible

.          P-55



        assumption to be making; is that not right?
   A.   I completely agree with you.
   Q.   Do you follow the point I am putting to you?
   A.   I completely agree and you are absolutely right.
There
        are probably concessions have to be made at both ends
of
        this scale.
   Q.   That may well be right, but let us focus on Leuchter's
        assumption of the very high concentrate?
   A.   My Lord, you will see that in the bundle of
correspondence
        which your Lordship has read only one item under No.
8,
        I wrote to all parties concerned saying:  "Clearly,
these
        criticisms I am now receiving have to be taken on
board
        and we have to do something about it".  Back came the
        objection from Mr Zundel:  "This is a court affidavit
        which we cannot publish it in an altered form.  We can
        only continue to publish it in the form as originally
        submitted".  So we are at a slight -- over a bit of a
        barrel there.  It is not as easy as your Lordship
thinks.
                  The other point that I thought I had made is
        that the Leuchter report was intended to provoke
precisely
        the discussion which we have succeeded in provoking at
        every level, including the scientific discussion.
   MR RAMPTON:  But, Mr Irving, I am diverting slightly.  I am
        coming back to Leichenkeller (1) in crematoria (ii)
and
        (iii) in a moment.  You have never ever publicly
        acknowledged the powerful -- no, I am going to use
this --

.          P-56



        cogent, very cogent, critiques which you have received
of
        the Leuchter report?
   A.   Because, in the meantime, of course, Leuchter had been
        replicated by other experts.  At the very press
conference
        that you read excerpts out from, I was challenged on
this
        point, and I said, "If you don't like Leuchter's
results,
        go and do the tests yourself and prove that I am a
        nincompoop", I think was the word I used.
   Q.   Professor Markievitch did just that and did prove that
you
        were a nincompoop, did he not?
   A.   Are you going to put his report in evidence to the
court?
   Q.   It is here.
   A.   Shall we say that when we get to it?
   Q.   Yes, we will look at it.  It is not done until 1994.
   A.   There is also an earlier report conducted in 1945.
   Q.   That is in German and we are certainly going to look
at
        that.  That is the one from Cracow in December 1945.
Go
        back to this question.
   A.   And, of course, Gelmar Rudolf did a much more detailed
        scientific test.
   Q.   I am sure you will refer to that in your evidence at
some
        stage.
   A.   It cannot be ignored.  He is a qualified scientist.
The
        only reason he did not get his doctorate was precisely
        because of coming up with politically incorrect
findings
        on this matter.

.          P-57



   Q.   Mr Irving, the fact is, though you evidently do not
know
        it, that the walls of Leichenkeller I and crematoria 2
and
        3 are not made of concrete at all.
   A.   We are talk about the roof, the ceiling.
   Q.   You are talking now about the roof, are you?
   A.   The cyanide was not exactly selective about where it
        settled.
   Q.   Do you agree with me that, if the concentration needed
to
        kill lice is 22 times greater than that needed to kill
        human beings -- I am not suggesting this is an exact
        proportion -- it is more likely that you will find 40
        years later or whatever it is, 50 years later, you
will
        find residual traces of hydrogen cyanide in the
delousing
        facility than you will in the supposed gas chamber?
   A.   They carried out controlled tests on buildings where
there
        had been no cyanide used whatsoever, not just in these
        camps but also in for example in Bavaria, and found
        exactly the same in significant levels.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think that that is an answer to
the
        question at all.
   A.   Very well.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do you want the question repeated?
   A.   If those figures are correct, then obviously you would
        expect substantially more.  This is correct, but you
        certainly would not expect nothing significant in the
        alleged homicidal gas chambers and that is what all
the

.          P-58



        tests so far have established.
   MR RAMPTON:  Would you please turn to tab 9 of this bundle?
It
        is a very short extract?
   A.   Oh, yes, Dr Roth.
   Q.   Tell me who Dr Roth is?
   A.   Dr Roth was the forensic analyst who was employed by
Ernst
        Zundel's defence team to carry out the quantitative
and
        qualitative analysis of the 30 odd samples which were
        brought back by Mr Leuchter from his visit to
Auschwitz in
        February 1988.
   Q.   Thank you very much.  Now I will read out what he said
in
        a television----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, you are assuming quite often
more
        knowledge on my part than I possess.  You are now
looking
        at tab 9?
   MR RAMPTON:  Tab 9, my Lord, Dr Roth.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I know nothing about Dr Roth at all.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving has just said that he is the chemist in
        charge of the Leuchter analysis.
   A.   He was the one who actually carried out the tests on the
        samples that Leuchter brought back.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is the chemist from the independent company?
   A.   In New England, yes.  The Cornell University or something.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It does sometimes help me if I have a little
        more context.  My Lord, this transcript is, I believe from

.          P-59



        the film Dr Death, Mr Death, so we do not know if it is a
        complete transcript or not, but I accept for the purposes
        that it is.

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