The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts/day007.20


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day007.20
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   Do you know him well?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Is he a reliable gentleman?
   A.   On the evidence of that, no.

.          P-172



   Q.   Is he a friend of yours?
   A.   Probably no longer.
   Q.   Probably no longer.  Seriously though, how close is your
        association with Mr Weber?
   A.   I see him about once every two years.
   Q.   Do you correspond regularly?
   A.   He occasionally telephones me.  I am glad he is paying the
        bill.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think if I were you, I would remember
        having said that if I said it.
   A.   Having said this?  It is the precise wording that
worries
        me, my Lord.  The sense is correct.
   Q.   I see.  Do not worry about the precise wording.  Is
the
        substance of it, did you make the points that Dresden
was
        a Holocaust or Auschwitz is a non-Holocaust because it
did
        not happen?
   A.   I did not say that and I do not think even this says
that,
        my Lord.  What I have said is that Dresden was a real
        Holocaust.  I have witnessed the pictures.
   Q.   Well, you then go on to say that of the Jews in the
gas
        chambers of Auschwitz is an invention?
   A.   Well, it is no secret that I have said that no Jews
were
        killed in the gas chambers at Auschwitz that are shown
to
        the tourists, but that is the kind of limitation which
        Mr Rampton would probably find unhelpful.
   MR RAMPTON:  No.  That is one of your own, what I might
say,

.          P-173



        self-set traps, Mr Irving.  You have occasionally made
        reference to the reconstructed gas chamber at
Auschwitz 1,
        the Stumlager.  You have on numerous occasions said
that
        there were no gas chambers anywhere in the German
system.
        That must include Birkenhau; we have just looked at
one
        such remark.
   A.   Well, I think you ought really to lead evidence to
this
        and not just summarize ----
   Q.   Am I right or -- it will ----
   A.   --- to this effect.
   Q.   --- save so much time, Mr Irving, if you would accept
that
        you have on numerous occasions said there were no gas
        chambers, plural, at Auschwitz?
   A.   Well, I am sure that if you had evidence to that
effect,
        then you would have started off the afternoon by
saying
        this.
   Q.   No.  Well, I will try to find your Chappaquidick
remark.
        Here we are, this is in November 1990, something
called
        the Latvian Hall ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Reference?
   MR RAMPTON:  That is the wrong one.  I am so sorry.  There
is
        the one I read out.  D2(i), my Lord, tab 9.  This is
1991,
        so I have got ahead of the chronology, so it does not
        matter.  I will start, if I may, with page 14?
   A.   At tab 9, you say?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I think so.

.          P-174



   MR RAMPTON:  Page 14 of tab 9, Mr Irving?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Which is a speech at, well, this is called Travel
Lodge
        Airport Inn, is that the same thing as Latvian Hall?
   A.   2,000 miles away, otherwise it is the same, yes.
   Q.   Oh, yes, this is Calgary, yes.  Quite right.  Now I am
        going to start at ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  10 lines down.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, something like that.  You were saying
that
        Elie Wiesel is a liar.  I am not the least bit
interested
        in the answer to that question -- it is not a question
--
        that observation, not the slightest bit, so please do
not
        but in with something about Eli Wiesel.  "And so are
the
        other eyewitnesses in Auschwitz who claim they saw
        gassings going on because there were no gas chambers
in
        Auschwitz, as the forensic tests show."
                  Mr Irving, is that right?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So when I said a moment ago that you had referred to
gas
        chambers in the plural, as you had at the Leuchter
press
        conference, I was right?
   A.   Well, I could quite simply say this is a matter of
English
        grammar.
   Q.   No.
   A.   I could say there is no Chinaman sitting in your team,
and
        I could equally well say there are no Chinamen sitting
in

.          P-175



        your team.  Both facts are equally correct if there is
not
        one.
   Q.   Yes, Mr Irving, that is, I am afraid, a rather poor
        answer.
   A.   It is an exact parallel.
   Q.   Mr Irving, you said at the Chelsea Press Conference,
the
        Leuchter Press Conference, that there were no gas
chambers
        at Auschwitz or elsewhere?
   A.   Mr Rampton, you are showing us one speech in Calgary
and
        suddenly you switch to Chelsea.
   Q.   I am going to show you a dozen references.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, shall we deal with this one first?
   MR RAMPTON:  When you made that remark, am I right, am I
        not  ----
   A.   If there was no gas chamber at Auschwitz, then there
were
        no gas chambers at Auschwitz.
   Q.   Mr Irving, please try to focus on the question.
   A.   It is precisely the question you asked me and I am
saying
        yes.
   Q.   No, you had said no gas chambers, plural, at
Auschwitz;
        what it means we can argue about later on.  You knew
when
        you made that observation, did you not, Mr Irving,
that
        Mr Leuchter had purported to sample the ruins of the
        supposed gas chambers at Birkenhau, did you not?
   A.   Also, yes.
   Q.   Yes.  So your assertion was meant to mean there were
no

.          P-176



        gas chambers at what people generally think of as
        Auschwitz, that is to say Auschwitz 1 which is
relatively
        unimportant, and also at Birkenhau?
   A.   Oh, we are slopping over the whole thing into
Birkenhau
        too now, are we?
   Q.   What do you mean?  Every time ----
   A.   I am clearly talking about Auschwitz here and you want
to
        drag Birkenhau under that umbrella as well.
   Q.   You meant to refer to Birkenhau, you meant people to
        understand Birkenhau, did you not, Mr Irving, because
you
        knew that Mr Leuchter's forensic tests related to
        Birkenhau as well as Auschwitz?  You also know that
        everybody thinks when they think of Auschwitz of the
        massive extermination facility at Birkenhau?
   A.   Well, Mr Rampton, you say "everybody thinks" this,
this is
        another of those wild assertions you make, rather like
you
        previously said everybody says the Holocaust is the
gas
        chambers.
   Q.   Mr Irving ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But it is true, Mr Irving, is it not?
   A.   It is not, my Lord.  It is a very important point.
   Q.   Just speaking for myself, I had never heard of
Birkenhau,
        but I had heard of Auschwitz.
   A.   Well, you have heard of Auschwitz, but, unfortunately,
        there are two camps.  One is called Auschwitz, one is
        called Birkenhau and there is a third camp called
Monovitz

.          P-177



        which is where the plant was, and experts, the
historians,
        are very careful to distinguish between them.
   Q.   Yes, but in terms of lay reaction and understanding,
        almost everybody regards the whole complex as being
        properly called "Auschwitz"?
   A.   I was not talking down to an audience here, my Lord.
        I was speaking ----
   Q.   They were all experts?
   A.   --- in terms of what I could justify.  It would be
talking
        down to them ----
   Q.   Anyway, you accept you said what is recorded as having
        been said here?
   A.   Quite definitely, yes.
   Q.   Do you also accept that you said that the existence of
        hundreds of thousands of eyewitnesses at Auschwitz,
from
        Auschwitz, is evidence that Auschwitz did not have a
        dedicated programme to kill the Jews there?
   A.   Yes, and I think that is a very fair comment to make.
If
        we are told that the Nazi programme was one of
        extermination of every Jew that Hitler could get his
hands
        on, the fact that very large numbers evidently
survived
        this programme, they were in the jaws of death at
        Auschwitz, and at Birkenhau ----
   Q.   Hundreds of thousands?
   A.   Indeed.  The figures are very large indeed if we look
at
        the figures of those who survived the camps.  Anne
Frank

.          P-178



        was one example, my Lord.  She was in Auschwitz.  She
        survived Auschwitz.  She was evacuated to Begen-Belsen
and
        died of typhus there with her family.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, the public perception, or what you
call
        the legend, is that upwards of a million people were
        deliberately murdered in gas chambers at what people
call
        Auschwitz.  Do you know that the actual number of
people
        murdered by that method at Auschwitz 1 was between 10
and
        15,000?
   A.   No, I do not know that.
   Q.   Where did Mr Leuchter do his forensic tests precisely?
        Tell me that.
   A.   Can we look at the report?
   Q.   Sorry, take the samples for the forensic tests.
   A.   Can we look at the report and see?
   Q.   No, no.  I want to know what you know about this.
        I really do not want you to deflect my questions by
        forever trying to refer to something else.  Tell me,
if
        will, whether you know as a fact or you knew as a
fact,
        rather, at the time when you were speaking here that
he
        had taken samples from the ruins of crematoria 2, 3, 4
and
        5 at Birkenhau?
   A.   I am certainly not going to answer a detailed question
        like that from memory of a document I saw 12 years
ago.
   Q.   You knew he had taken samples from Birkenhau, did you
not?
   A.   Yes.

.          P-179



   Q.   You knew that those samples had been subjected to
forensic
        chemical tests, did you not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Right.  Please turn to page 11 of this transcript that
we
        are presently looking at.  About halfway, just under
        halfway, I would say two thirds of the way down, there
is
        a sentence which begins: "And it was the forensic
tests".
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "And it was the forensic tests", those, Mr Irving, in
your
        mind are the Liechter tests at Auschwitz One and at
        Birkenhau?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   As you have just told us: "On the gas chambers" plural
"in
        Auschwitz which has totally exploded the legend", now
what
        is "the legend"?
   A.   The legend of Auschwitz as a factory of death,
        purpose-built with gas chambers that clanked into
        operation and killed upwards, as you say, of a million
        people.
   Q.   Of which the major component, as I have just suggested
to
        you, by a very long way was Birkenhau?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Thank you.  Now can we please go to ----
   A.   A major component of a legend, yes.
   Q.   Of course, Mr Irving.  Page 22.  I am going to read
from
        the beginning actually of this is in connection with
that

.          P-180



        piece of pleading that I read out to you, from the
        beginning of the big paragraph about a quarter of the
way
        down the page: "There is more to come.  'Irving has
been
        welcomed in Ottawa.  Less publicized but no less
        disgusting are Irving's on women.  He argues that
women's
        brains are 10 per cent smaller than men's".  This is
now
        Mr Irving speaking:
                  "You see they are scraping, it is true, they
        are scraping the bottom of the barrel now.  They are
        trying to appeal to all the organizations in Ottawa
who
        are being called together under a mass demonstration
        against the gays, the lesbians, the communists, the
trade
        unions, all these people".
   A.   You will notice I do not mention the Jews there even
in
        this audience, is that not surprising for an
        anti-Semitic?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us read it through.
   MR RAMPTON:  "All these people are being called out to
        demonstrate against me on October 6th." Was that true?
   A.   Yes, we had rented the biggest hall in Ottawa for me to
        speak in and massive attempts were being made to shut me
        up.

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