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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts/day006.13


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day006.13
Last-Modified: 2000/08/02

   Q.   But we can, can we not, infer from the page number that
        the speech was at that stage a good deal shorter because
        in our other version the page number finally winds up as
        being 28, I think, does it not?  That may be a function of
        the different size.
   A.   Different size typeface.
   Q.   But I ask you to notice that the top right-hand corner of
        the one we have got in the bundle ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- appears to have been changed from a number in its
        teens, does it not?
   A.   Hard to say on the basis of that copy.
   Q.   In manuscript.
   A.   I can only say it is hard to say on the basis of that
        copy.
   Q.   It is hard to say, but the first of those digits looks a
        bit like a 1, does it not?
   A.   I can only say it is hard to say.
   Q.   You see, I do not make these observations in order to lead
        to a particular conclusion.  All I say is you do not
find
        in these different versions and different numberings
of a
        page containing the same words, do you, any suggestion

.          P-113



        that this page was added at a later date, after some
        sanitized version had been given to Hitler?
   A.   That is not the suggestion that I made.
   Q.   Well, what is it?
   A.   I am perfectly content with the suggestion and, in
fact,
        with the clear proof that Himmler actually used these
        words when speaking to this audience of military
gentlemen
        who were accustomed to accepting orders from above.
What
        I am suggesting is that in the version that he then
sent
        to Hitler he retyped that page and replaced it by
another
        page that is not before us.
   Q.   But why do you say that?
   A.   Because something has happened to this page.  Quite
        clearly something has happened to this page.
   Q.   But people make alterations to their drafts all the
time.
        Look, do you agree that this smaller typeface probably
        represents an earlier generation of the same ----
   A.   Quite clearly.  It is almost certainly the original
        shorthand version.
   Q.   So what leads you to suppose then that the speech was
made
        in these terms, let us suppose this is an earlier
draft?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   With the manuscript alteration, that is not Himmler's
        writing, an earlier draft, the speech is not made in
those
        terms, it is recorded in these terms as they were
        recorded, were they not?

.          P-114



   A.   Sometimes they are recorded.
   Q.   Yes.  Then comes a transcript or a version anyway?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   To be put before the Fuhrer?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And for some reason or another the page which we have
here
        and which is in the draft is removed?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And replaced by something else?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   What is the evidence for that?
   A.   The fact that this page has clearly been retyped at
some
        stage.
   Q.   So what?
   A.   And renumbered from there on.
   Q.   Perhaps it was badly typed in the first place.
   A.   That is another, third possible alternative, but it is
the
        funniest thing, is it not, that this is the one page
that
        it happens on.  The one page that contains the
pregnant
        sentence has clearly been retyped at a different date
by a
        different hand on different paper.
   Q.   Why do you say a different date?
   A.   Well, because it is on different paper.  It is not
taken
        from the same wad of paper that the rest of the speech
is
        typed on.
   Q.   But suppose the secretaries do a shift job or
something

.          P-115



        later in the same day, perhaps the evening, I do not
know
        what time of the day the speech is made, nor do we
know
        what dates these were drafts were on, do we?
   A.   No, we do not.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry, Mr Rampton, I hope you do not
        mind, can I just see where we have got to?  This is a
        speech made by Himmler to a whole collection -- how
many
        Gauleiters Reichsleiters?
   A.   This is to top brass in the armed forces.
   Q.   How many would there have been there?
   A.   Probably in the order of 100.
   Q.   And several of them would be seeing Hitler on a fairly
        regular basis?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And your hypothesis is that Himmler is telling the
        Generals that he has been ordered to take this drastic
        action ----
   A.   He is speaking ----
   Q.   --- as against Jews?
   A.   Once again he is not reading from a prepared script.
   Q.   No, but he is telling the generals that when it is not
        true he is inventing the order -- is this your
hypothesis
         -- and that is the reason why he has to sanitize the
        version that goes to Hitler?
   A.   If I can paraphrase the way I have put it in my book,
my
        Lord, we have any number of speeches where Himmler
made

.          P-116



        the same kind of statement.  This is the only one
where he
        inadvertently, perhaps, talked about a Fuhrer order.
He
        may very well have inadvertently, because the General
has
        spoken of a Fuhrer order because they are accustomed
to
        orders.  I do not know what his motive for that was.
   Q.   It is scarcely inadvertent.  It is plainly a speech
that
        was carefully prepared in advance.
   A.   He is not reading from a script, my Lord.  We have
        probably in this case, certainly in other cases, like
on
        one page of paper he would write down 15 or 20 words
on
        the basis of which he would speak.
   Q.   I am bound to say that looking at the bit of paper
        Mr Rampton handed in a moment ago, that looks to me
like a
        preparatory draft which was altered ----
   A.   No, my Lord, it is not.
   Q.   --- for grammatical reasons.  Well, you tell me that
and
        I will accept it because I expect you have good reason
for
        doing so.
   A.   It very definitely is not, my Lord.  This is a typed
        version taken from either the shorthand notes or, as
        Mr Rampton rightly says, from the sound recording
which is
        then edited in handwriting by a third hand.  From that
is
        then prepared, as we can see by comparison, the large
        Fuhrer size typewriter.  All I am saying, my Lord, is
one
        has to comment on the fact that this page alone has
been
        retyped at a different date and inserted, and ----

.          P-117



   Q.   Yes, I follow that.
   A.   It is significant.
   Q.   But what I want to ask you is this, Mr Irving, was
Himmler
        not taking an almighty risk in pretending to the
Generals
        that he had an order when he had not, given that the
        Generals were going to be, or some of them, in
        communication directly with Hitler?
   A.   This might be the very reason why he had that page
retyped
        making no reference to a Fuhrer order.  We do not know
        what is on the retyped version.  I hesitate to venture
out
        too far across that particular thin ice.  We cannot
        speculate what was on the other version of that page,
the
        one that was correctly typed and correctly indented.
   Q.   I thought you were speculating that it might have been
        sanitized to delete the reference to an order.
   A.   Yes, we cannot safely speculate really any more than
        I have done in the book.  My Lord, the whole of this
        passage is in my book "Hitler's War" with the entire
        incriminating quotation, and in a footnote of three
lines,
        two and a half lines, I have drawn attention to the
fact
        that this page is for some reason or other retyped.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am not sure you are right about it.  It is a
        small point, but, to be clear, it is both this and the
        next speech of 24th are in Hitler's War 1977?
   A.   On pages 630 and 631.
   Q.   Yes.  But I think you will find, if you look at page
630

.          P-118



        of 1991, I think 4th May has disappeared, has it not?
        I may be wrong about that.
   A.   I would be very surprised indeed if they are.
   Q.   I compared it with 1977.  I think ----
   A.   I would be prepared to bet a substantial sum of money
it
        has not vanished.
   Q.   You find it in Hitler's War 1991 because I could not.
        I am not saying it is not there; I could not find it.
   A.   Well, it will be on page 630.  Oddly any, it is
exactly
        the same page as the old version.
   Q.   630 of the old version.  Let us compare the two, shall
we?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I cannot see it on 630.
   A.   I may have to withdraw my bet.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is on 630 of 1977 ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  --- sure enough, and 24th May is on page 631.
        I am baffled to know where to find it in the edition
for
        1991.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You can always come back to this, Mr
Irving,
        because it is difficult to find something when you are
on
        the hoof, as it were.
   A.   I am slightly puzzled because I am just looking at the
end
        notes and I see there are two pages of the end notes
have
        vanished, three pages of the end notes have vanished
from
        your photocopy and I wonder if it is in the end notes
        instead.

.          P-119



   MR RAMPTON:  That is not very likely, is it, Mr Irving?
   A.   I am still on page 830.
   Q.   If there were an end note about it, it would be in the
        same part of the text, would it not?
   A.   But it would be on page 830 of the end notes which I
do
        not have.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think I have.
   MR RAMPTON:  I have lost mine too.
   A.   Either that or it has been shovelled to a different
part
        of the book which I -- there has been some major
        structural change to that chapter I can see with all
the
        fresh material we have put in.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think the note on page 630 ----
   A.   It does not contain it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  --- helps.
   MR RAMPTON:  Your end notes in the 1991 edition are done by
        numbers, are they not?
   A.   By page number.
   Q.   Yes, I see.  My fault.  So I have to look to the end
note
        to page 630?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Which is on page 830?
   A.   I may have put it to a different part of the book, but
it
        is not in the same place.  We can say that anyway.
   MR RAMPTON:  There is a real oddity here, Mr Irving.  You
have
        not got it, so I will read it out.
   A.   Yes.

.          P-120



   Q.   The end note to page 630 says (and, no doubt, this is
        exactly what it says in the 1977 edition), I am
reading at
        the end of the note:  "His May 5th speech is on
microfilm
        and that of May 24th", that is another microfilm
        reference?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It had been in the text in 1977, but there is no
question,
        since this is a reference to page 630 of the text,
that it
        has left the main stage by the time of the 1991
edition?
   A.   As you can see, I am as baffled as you are by this.
   Q.   No, it is quite easy.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You have edited it out of the text of the 1991
edition,
        but have forgotten to change the end note which is
merely
        replicating what was said in 1977?
   A.   Can I amend that statement to say it has been edited
out?
   Q.   OK.
   A.   If it has been edited out, of course, many hands edit
it.
        The American editors who produce this text may well
have
        decided this was just repeating what the next
paragraph
        said.  I am as baffled as you are and I will look into
it
        within the next 24 hours and see what I can make of
it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We will come back to it.
   MR RAMPTON:  I will not push that any further for the
moment
        until I hear, if you can produce it, what the
explanation
        might be.  You see, if we look at the history of the
thing

.          P-121



        (with which you are well familiar), you told us
yesterday,
        I think, that by this time, May 1944, it is likely
that
        Hitler was well aware of what Himmler had been doing?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And you also told us, I think, that if Hitler had been
        told or had known earlier in 1942, early 1943, he
probably
        would not have minded very much?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So if you are right, what was Himmler so terrified --
I do
        not accept for a moment you are right; I have to say
        I think it is a fanciful suggestion -- what on earth
was
        Himmler afraid of?
   A.   Hitler had repeatedly issued injunctions against people
        who were issuing Fuhrer orders of which he had no
        knowledge.  There is several examples of that in the
        files.  There is one occasion when Albert Speer goes to
        see him and Hitler complains to him that the foreign
        workers are not getting enough to eat.  Speer says: "But
        this was a Fuhrer order, mein Fuhrer", and this is
        recorded in the minutes of that conference, and Hitler
        says:  "This is the first I have ever heard of any such
        order".  So ----

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