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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts/day005.16


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day005.16
Last-Modified: 2000/08/01

   Q.   Would you please answer my question, Mr Irving?  You said
        you extrapolated the conclusion that there was expert and
        scientific evidence that Treblinka was not a totas
        fabrike.  You extrapolated that from Auschwitz?
   A.   I very foolishly used the word suggested by his Lordship,
        "extrapolated".  Perhaps I should have -- without

.          P-140



        realising that the word was going to be seized upon by
        counsel.
   Q.   That is what I am paid for, Mr Irving.  I am sorry if
you
        say things ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- you readily accept a suggestion from the Judge and
        make it part of your evidence and it seems to me to be
        idiotic, then I am going to seize on it, am I not?
   A.   I do not think his Lordship suggested an idiotic word
but
        in this particular case ----
   Q.   No, the process would be idiotic, though, would it
not, to
        extrapolate a denial about Treblinka from the evidence
        about Auschwitz, would it not?
   A.   No, the extrapolation there would be to say that if
        Auschwitz was not a killing station, a dedicated
factory
        of death, then, on the balance of probabilities, it is
        likely that these two were not dedicated factories of
        death either.
   Q.   Why?  Auschwitz started out as a huge grandiose scheme
by
        Himmler, did it not, to provide a sort of fife for the
SS
        in central or south Poland at which there would be
vast
        factories and brilliant agricultural lands and
experiments
        of that kind, without any thought of killing anybody
at
        all except through hard work?
   A.   You are giving evidence on my part.
   Q.   That is right, is it no?

.          P-141



   A.   That is absolutely right and I wish you were my
counsel at
        this moment.
   Q.   That is how Auschwitz started out.  Its origins were
quite
        different from those of the three so-called Reinhardt
        camps?
   A.   It now squares up to the chronology, Mr Rampton.  We
are
        told by your experts that Auschwitz had become a
dedicated
        killing station by the end of 1941 or early 1942 at
the
        latest, and yet apparently the also had found it
necessary
        to establish other places to do killings too.
   Q.   Mr Irving, I am sorry  ----
   A.   So that is what I mean by extrapolating.  If you have
a
        super mass production factory here, then why do you
build
        these villages elsewhere?
   Q.   If you read Professor van Pelt's report with any care
you
        would know that that was complete nonsense, that the
        evolution of Auschwitz into a dedicated killing
facility,
        in fact not Auschwitz, Birkenhau, really began at the
end
        of 1942.  There were some gassings by the use of a
cellar
        at Auschwitz, one, and by, two, converted farm houses
        during 1942?
   A.   But of there was a course huge rate of mortality at
        Auschwitz in the middle of 1942.
   Q.   We will get on to Auschwitz next week, but do not
        misrepresent what Professor van Pelt has said, unless
you
        are sure of your ground, because it is not what he
said.

.          P-142



   A.   You have brought up Auschwitz now and you are talking
        about dates and months, and when I try to pin you down
on
        the huge mortality rate in the middle of 1942 you are
        saying let us talk about that next week.
   Q.   There was a typhus epidemic at Auschwitz in 1942.
   A.   So we are saying now that all the deaths in 1942 were
from
        typhus?
   Q.   Mr Irving, surely you can do better than that?
   A.   You just said it, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   I said there was a huge typhus epidemic in 1942?
   A.   The killings did not start until the end of 1942.
   Q.   I did not say that.  At the same time people were
being
        gassed in what are known as bunkers one and two, and
that
        the conversion of the two planned crematoria at
Birkenhau
        into gas chambers took place in the late part of 1942
at
        the planning stage, and that they came into operation
in
        early 1943?
   A.   With the cyanide being dropped in through the roof,
        right?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have to compartmentalize to an extent.
We
        are not on that topic yet.
   MR RAMPTON: No, we are not.
   A.   I think Mr Rampton made some useful concessions.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think it is actually party my fault.  I
        think I rater reintroduced Auschwitz.  We are back on
the
        systematic nature of the killings by whatever means,
is

.          P-143



        that really the broad heading for the topic we are on?
   MR RAMPTON:  This is right.  I am not sure where we have
got in
        relation to Treblinka, my Lord, and the other two
        Reinhardt camps, except this.  There has been an
        acceptance by Mr Irving that hundreds of thousands of
Jews
        were intentionally killed in those three places, but
not
        as the consequence of any policy or system, I think,
and
        that he is not satisfied that that was their dedicated
        purpose.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Speaking for myself, one does not really
need
        to spend terribly much time now on what exactly was
going
        on in any of those places.  The point seems now to be
how
        did it come about, was it local murderers?
   A.   I think the way Mr Rampton summed it up is a very fair
        summary of my position.
   MR RAMPTON:  There is also, of course, an issue about the
        method of killing, but that may in due course turn out
to
        be less significant.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  In relation to those camps I think it
might.
   MR RAMPTON:  Indeed.  As to system ----
   A.   It is only of relevance when it goes to the expertise
of
        the people who considered this whole matter, if they
        willing accept that kind of story, if I can put it
like
        that.
   Q.   I agree with that.  So, my Lord, what I propose is to
look
        at just some very few documents for two purposes.
What

.          P-144



        I am going to do is to look at just some very
documents
        for two purposes: one to show the scale of the thing
and
        the other to show the sort of level at which it was
being
        discussed.  So I am not going to look at a lot of what
        Mr Irving calls "janitorial" documents, and I hope
that
        most of what I am going to look at is going to be
common
        ground.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So far as the scale of the operation is
        concerned, it may be that that can be, as it were,
        disposed of as an issue by some very general
questions.
        I do not know.
   MR RAMPTON:  Well, I expect so, but if one looks at, for
        example -- I would rather do it chronologically, if I
am
        allowed, I think.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It was just that if the door is an open
one,
        then there is no point in pushing against it too hard.
   MR RAMPTON:  I agree.  Do you agree, Mr Irving, you have
        written something of it in your own book, that daily
        trains full of Jews, thousands of Jews, from about
22nd
        July were going eastwards from Walsall, Radom, and
        eventually Lublin.  There is another place too, I
cannot
        remember, to these three places from about 22nd July?
   A.   This is the correspondence between Wolff and
Ganzenmuller.
   Q.   That is Wolff and Ganzenmuller?
   A.   Yes, the Minister of Transport.
   Q.   You do accept that?

.          P-145



   A.   Large numbers, yes.
   Q.   We will look at what the position was in ----
   A.   They are going via Malinka to Treblinka I think.
   Q.   Yes, all that, in enormous numbers.  If you think
about
        it, 5,000 Jews a day is 35,000 Jews a week?
   A.   That would be five train loads.
   Q.   Yes.  What?
   A.   That would have been five train loads per day.
   Q.   Exactly.  I am comfortable without having just a quick
        look at the document.
   A.   It might be useful just to have a look at the
documents to
        see what the security classification was.
   Q.   I must say I rather agree.  We will look at two
documents,
        if you do not mind.  Ganzenmuller to Wolff on 29th
July
        1942, it is either 28th or 29th, anyhow I need a copy
of
        it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is it H4(ii)?
   MR RAMPTON:  It might be.
   A.   The originals were in my discovery of course.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can we not operate off Professor
Browning's.
   MR RAMPTON:  I do not know where that is.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Page 45.
   MR RAMPTON:  There is no copy, that is the trouble.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We can do it off the report, can we not?
        Page 45.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry, my Lord, where did your Lordship
say?

.          P-146



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Page 45.  I think that is probably all
you
        really need.  I cannot believe the context is going to
        make much difference.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, the context probably is not.
                  "Since July 22nd one train with 5,000 Jews
        departs daily via Malinka to Treblinka.  Moreover,
twice
        per week a train with 5,000 Jews departs", a Polish
word
        for Belzec.  So that is, is it not, 35,000 a week
from,
        I think that is actually from Walsall?
   A.   Yes, my only little quibble is with the figures.  I
accept
        the documents are completely authentic, but you could
not
        get 5,000 people into one train, not even with a shoe
        horn.
   Q.   I agree.  That is why I think the figure is
exaggerated.
   A.   There is a little bit of bragging going on here.
   Q.   Yes, probably.
   A.   The normal figure is about 1,000 people per train and
this
        is, certainly at this time, I mean later on in 1944
when
        they used more brutal methods I think they packed them
        into more unorthodox transport.
   Q.   Perhaps, Mr Irving, we do better to look at a summary
        which was made in Berlin at the end of September 1942,
and
        you may agree these figures are more reliable.  It is
page
        47, my Lord, of Professor Browning and it is note 121,
        which is H3(ii), tab 13 I am told.  I apologise to
your
        Lordship for that slight delay, but when the files are

.          P-147



        open I cannot tell what they are.  It is first
document
        behind tab 13.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  We looked at this once before I think, Mr
Irving.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   We have to at the moment take it from Professor
Browning
        that it is what he says it is.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   He says it is a conference in Berlin on 26th and 28th
        September 1992.  What his basis for that saying is I
do
        not know.  He will tell us no doubt when he gets here.
        Assuming that to be right, it is telling us that there
was
        discussed, one, the evacuation of 600,000 Jews from
the
        General Government?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of the General Government.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry, my Lord, yes, of the General
        Government.  Then item two is the forwarding of
200,000
        Romanian Jews into the General Government.
   A.   I can see item one, the 600,000 going.
   Q.   "Die Verschieckung".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Paragraph 2?
   A.   Am I looking at the Browning or at a document?
   Q.   No, I am sorry, you should be looking at a document.
   A.   Right.  Which is where.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I would do a bit of housekeeping if I
were
        you, Mr Irving.

.          P-148



   A.   Where do I find it in H3(ii)?
   MR RAMPTON:  You will find it behind tab 13.
   A.   Under tab 13?
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   Yes, OK, I have it.
   Q.   You have that and I expect you recognize it?
   A.   I have never seen it before.  It is pages 149 and 150
of
        some, it looks like a court document of some kind.
   Q.   I do not know.
   A.   Highly unsatisfactory of course to have a document
        presented in this form in a court transcript.
   Q.   If you dispute its reliability or its authenticity you
can
        take it up with Professor Browning when he gets here.
        I have asked you to bear that in mind.
   A.   It is just a comment I make that it is unsatisfactory
to
        have a document presented in this form.
   Q.   Of course, but this is not an historical enquiry,
        Mr Irving.  You brought this action against my clients
        asking for damages and an injunction.  So we have to
do
        the best we can with what we have before us.  Can I
just
        ask you ----
   A.   Mr Rampton, you have a very large staff of experts and
        experts' assistants and assistants to those assistants
        behind you in this very courtroom.  I am acting on
this
        action by myself.
   Q.   Yes, Mr Irving.  Just assume for the sake of argument,

.          P-149



        will you, that this is both authentic and possibly, I
do
        not know, reliable?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It speaks of the evacuation of 600,000 Jews of the
General
        Government?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It speaks also of the forwarding into the General
        Government the 200,000 Romanian Jews, does it not, the
        second paragraph?
   A.   Yes, it is in words, yes, "von zweihunderttausend
Juden
        Rumaniens".

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