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Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day005.13
Last-Modified: 2000/08/01

   Q.   Would you read the part of 218 that is printed on that
        page, and the first part down to the words " geschaffen
        worden ist" on the next page in German.  I am certainly
        not going to do that.
   A.   You wish me to read it out in German?
   Q.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is there not an English version? This is
not
        a very happy way of doing it, is it? It is terribly
        laborious.
   MR RAMPTON:  I have not got a translation of this
particular
        book.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Not even in Longerich?
   MR RAMPTON:  It is noted in Longerich, as you can see.  The
        document is 9th June 1942.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is not in your schedule, is it?
   MR RAMPTON:  It is footnoted.  It is not in my schedule,
no.

.          P-111



        It is a document I found quite late.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If there is no alternative, we will have
to
        do that way.
   MR RAMPTON:  Right, I only want to ask one question really
        about this.  That is a report from the Gestapo in
Lodsch
        about movement of Jews, is it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Yes.  What it is saying is, we make space for Jews
coming
        -- I am paraphrasing -- in from the Outreich and the
        Ostmark by, I do not know whether the word is
displacing,
        resettling, the Jews that are already in the ghetto at
        Lodsch?
   A.   Yes.  This was always the policy.  There would be a
stage
        by stage ripple, shall we say.
   Q.   What does the last phrase in the fifth line and sixth
        lines of 247 mean? "... So das nunmehr fur zirka 55000
        Juden Platz im Ghetto geschaffen worden ist"?
   A.   So that we have now generated enough space for about
        55,000 Jews in the ghetto.
   Q.   That must mean that about 55,000 Jews more or less
have
        been moved out somewhere?
   A.   Yes, assuming that the ghetto had not been expanded at
        that time.
   Q.   Sure, but, if you look at the table above, which may
        indeed have a different source, it may have been
        translated from the Polish, I do not know, 217, do you
see

.          P-112



        the right hand column "Abgang"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And the subheading "Ausgesiedelt"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Which means settled, taken away?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The first of the two columns in the middle says nach
        Kulmhof, does it not?
   A.   To Chelmno, yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is the same as Chelmno, is it?
   A.   Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  That is Chelmno.  If you total up the figures
in
        that column, they come, I can tell you, to 54,990.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So that is where, using a reasonable degree of
        intelligence and interpretive wisdom, Mr Irving, those
        55,000 Jews in this Gestapo report have gone, is it
not?
   A.   Effectively, from January to May.
   Q.   That is right, in five months?
   A.   In five months, yes.  You are confronting me with
these
        documents.  I am seeing it for the first time.  I
think we
        are learning together.  We are reading them together
and
        I will accept that as an interpretation, yes.
   Q.   Thank you.  Are you prepared to say what you think
might
        have happened to those 55,000 Jews that were sent to
        Chelmno in the first months of 1942?

.          P-113



   A.   Not on the basis of just those two documents, no.  I
think
        it would be highly irresponsible to do so.  I am just
        looking at where Chelmno is on the map.
   Q.   Do you know anything about what was at Chelmno?
   A.   We know something about what was at Chelmno.  There
were
        these gas trucks that were disposing of people at some
        time during the war, but whether they were operating
in
        these five months, I do not know.  I notice that
Chelmno
        is on the border to the East, and an equally plausible
        interpretation would be that they had been sent there
as
        the first stepping stage to go somewhere East.  I am
not
        saying this is what happened.
   Q.   Chelmno?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   No, no, Chelmno, you are quite mistaken.  Chelmno is
in
        the Warthegau.  It is about 40 kilometres west-north-
west
        of Lublin.
   A.   It is off this map?
   Q.   No, it is not on the map but I can tell you that it is
on
        every map I have ever looked at.  Chelmno is in the
        Warthegau.
   A.   Of Lublin?
   Q.   Sorry, Lodsch. Did I say Lublin?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It will not be on this map then.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I thought Chelmno was the same as Chelm.

.          P-114



   MR RAMPTON:  No, it is not.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I thought that is what I was told this
        morning.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, it is not.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So Chelmno is not here at all.
   MR RAMPTON:  Unless I can find it.  I think this is Eastern
        Poland.  I think this is a general Government map.  It
is
        not a map of the Warthegau at all.  Your Lordship does
        have some coloured maps.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I do.  I have found Chelmno on one
of
        them.
   MR RAMPTON:  You will find Chelmno, as I say, about 40
        kilometres West.
   A.   Whatever.  The precise answer is that, on the basis of
        these two documents, we can say that that is on the
        balance of probabilities the identical 55,000 people.
   Q.   I agree.
   A.   But we cannot say on the basis of those two documents
what
        happened to those.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Chelmno is in fact some distance West of
        Warsaw.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, but also West of Lodsch.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  This is a different grouping, if I may call it
        that, of Jews in some sense.  These are the Jews of
the
        Warthegau that no doubt form part of the figure given
by

.          P-115



        Dr Korheir in March 1943.
   A.   This is the kind of statistical basis that would have
been
        provided to that statistician, yes.
   Q.   In that document he said that the Jews of the
Warthegau,
        I forget how many, 145,000 I think, had undergone
        Sonderbehandlung, did he not?
   A.   I am not going to answer that without seeing the
document.
   Q.   You remember, we discussed it this morning.  You
agreed
        with me.  The Korheir report that Himmler had edited?
   A.   Yes, but whether those specific ones -- I know the
phrase
        Sonderbehandlung ... comes into the document but
whether
        it is specifically the Warthegau Jews he is referring
to.
   Q.   He referred to 145,000 Warthegau Jews and some
whatever
        million Polish Jews.
   A.   Yes, if that is what the document says.
   Q.   As far as I recall, it does.  It is something like
that.
   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Was Chelmno a village like Sobibor?
   A.   I am as ill informed as your Lordship is on this.  I
am
        not an expert on these matter but I am prepared to
blunder
        around in the darkness along with Mr Rampton.
   MR RAMPTON:  I think Professor Van Pelt may have something
to
        say about that if asked, and so would, no doubt,
Professor
        Browning.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The odd thing about it is that they are
going
        West rather than East.

.          P-116



   A.   That point obviously does stand out.
   MR RAMPTON:  If you are going to kill large numbers of
people,
        it does not matter how you do it or where you do it,
        provided you do it with a degree of concealment or
        discretion, does it, Mr Irving?
   A.   You are absolutely right.  But I repeat, of course,
that
        the conclusions you are drawing are not actually
included
        in the two documents you have so far put to us.
   Q.   No it is a little piece of evidence along the way,
        Mr Irving.
   A.   After 55 years we are entitled to more than just
little
        bits of evidence, particularly now that the Polish
        archives and the Russian archives are open to us.
   Q.   We go over this again and again and again, you see. I
am
        not looking for a single document as you are, Mr
Irving.
        I am looking at a jigsaw puzzle and I am trying to fit
the
        pieces together.  When I have done that, I look at the
        picture and I say, as an intelligent historian with an
        open mind, what does this tell me?
   A.   I think you are absolutely right.  I do exactly the
same
        exercise but I think I am applying possibly slightly
        stricter criteria, because one is always liable to be
        ambushed ten years down the road by a document which
        produces a completely different conclusion.  The
closer
        you adhere to the original documents, if you possibly
can,
        the less likely you are to be ambushed.  For example,
when

.          P-117



        the entire Goebbels' diaries came out about 15/20
years
        ago, I contacted the editors and I said is there any
        document that proves me wrong because I am quite happy
to
        be proven wrong.  That is exactly the kind of
nightmare
        that awaits you, that suddenly some new huge archive
may
        open up like the entire Auschwitz archive, as happened
        quite recently, and the documents may be there to
prove
        that you made irresponsible conclusions.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But does the responsible historian take
        account also of the fact that we do know that quite a
lot
        of what you might call the compromising documents were
        destroyed deliberately as the Russian army advanced
        westward?
   A.   My Lord, the entire Auschwitz archives were captured
by
        the Russians, as we shall be hearing from the expert
        witnesses, which is a very substantial trove.  It was
not
        just any archives, it was the entire Auschwitz
        construction archives.  The same happened in Mydonek
when
        the Russians captured Mydonek.
   MR RAMPTON:  Can we try to speed up a bit, Mr Irving,
because
        this is uncontroversial.  Have you still got that
tabular
        sort of chronology summary document we gave you before
the
        adjournment?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   We put at the bottom of page 6 that Himmler had lunch
with
        Hitler on 14th July.  We took that from the Witte
book.

.          P-118



   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You in your books say he saw him on 16th.  It does not
        probably matter, does it?.
   A.   It may well be that -- he was constantly in and out.
It
        may well be that I had a letter that Himmler wrote to
        Berger, for example, in which he said, "Yesterday I
had
        lunch with the Fuhrer".  This is the kind of source
that
        you would extract that information from.  I have now
        obtained access to all the private letters that
Himmler
        wrote to his mistress where he describes this very
trip to
        Auschwitz, that kind of material.  You are constantly
        coming across new material.
   Q.   At all events, either one day or three days after
meeting
        Hitler, Himmler goes to Eastern Europe, he goes to
        Auschwitz first?
   A.   He goes on quite a swing around the occupied
territories.
   Q.   On 19th he is in Lublin?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Eventually, I think, he winds up in Finland or
somewhere
        like that, but never mind that.  He goes to Auschwitz.
   A.   We have, of course, the private shorthand diary of
        Himmler's personal assistant, Rudolph Brant, for this
        entire period, about a 300 page shorthand diary, which
        I had transcribed and to which you have made no
reference
        in this, I see.
   Q.   I did not know about it and I know not whether it has
any

.          P-119



        relevance or significance?
   A.   It has been in my discovery and your instructing
        solicitors have photocopied the entire document.
   Q.   I have no knowledge whether it has any significance or
        relevance for this case.
   A.   It has negative significance in as much as it is
        shorthand, it is kept by Himmler's personal assistant,
and
        yet it contains none of the kind of evidence that one
        would have liked to have found.
   Q.   Now there is a document which I think we need to look
at,
        which is having been to Auschwitz on 17th and 18th
July
        1942 -- if anybody wants to see it, there is a
photograph
        of the visit in the Witte book.
   A.   Gerald Fleming also publishes it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We do not really need to look at it, do
we?
   MR RAMPTON:  I do not think you need to look at it, no,
        I agree.
   A.   Well, it shows who went.  Kamla was there, the man who
        built Auschwitz.
   Q.   The architect, Bischoff, was there?
   A.   Bischoff was there.  Presumably, Dejaco was also there
--
        all the local notables.  Mr Dejaco is D-E-J-A-C-O.
   Q.   Now Mr Irving will need file H3 (ii).
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, this is a document referred to on
pages
        63 to 64 of, so I am told -- can I just -- you perhaps
        would like to have it open in front of you, page 63,
my

.          P-120



        Lord?
   A.   Of?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of Browning.
   MR RAMPTON:  Of Browning.  Could you turn to page 63,
please?
        I will just read out what Professor Browning says:
"An
        earlier document mentioning Einsatz Reinhard".  We can
        translate that as "Operation Reinhard", can we?
   A.   Not spelt that way though.

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