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Last-Modified: 2000/08/01

   Q.   Well, the possibility remains that there are certain kinds
        of documents which certain kinds of people at certain
        times in history will set out deliberately to destroy?
   A.   I think this is a useful discussion.  Yes, I think that
        with certain kind of documents one would have expected
        people to attach priority to their destruction but, even
        if that is the case, there will always be somebody
        slightly lower down in that chain of hierarchy between the
        person who gives the orders and the person who executes
        them who has felt a qualm of conscience or a pang of
        conscience, and who has written to his wife, saying we
        have to carry out orders that are too ghastly even to
        think of, and I found documents just like that, too.
   Q.   You found a letter that the officer Dr Otto Schutz Duval
        wrote to his wife, did you not?
   A.   I did not find that, no.
   Q.   You did not, but that is such an example, is it not?
   A.   I am afraid I am not familiar with that document unless
        you remind me of it.
   Q.   You refer to it on your web site.
   A.   Somebody else found it, obviously posted it and put it on
        the web site.  I am talking about around Hitler's level

.          P-102



        there with generals who wrote letters of precisely
that
        content, saying they are doing things in Poland that I
do
        not even like to tell you about.
   Q.   That process, what one might call the workings of
        conscience or anything else, might account for what
you
        have called the occasional orphan document, might it
not?
   A.   Yes indeed, but also there could be an uglier process,
        namely a document created like the identity card of Mr
        Ivan Demjanjuk, which turns out to have been generated
by
        the KGB for whatever purpose.  We have to be
constantly on
        the look out, particularly for documents coming from
        Russian or KGB archives.  It is a remote possibility,
but
        we have to be alert to that possibility.
   Q.   Yes.  Of course that is absolutely right.  Can we
start
        please -- I know you will think or may think initially
        that this is somewhat anachronistic out of our
chronology
        but it is not really as you will see in a moment -- a
        document which I am sure you are familiar with.  My
Lord,
        it is in bundle H4 (v).
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am afraid that is one I do not have
here.
   MR RAMPTON:  We seem to have quite a lot of spares here.
        Footnote 187.  These are Dr Longerich's documents?
   A.   Yes.  I think I am the first person to have quoted
this
        document in fact ever.
   Q.   Again, I am afraid it is a document which is sideways
in
        the file.  This is a reprint of the original.  It is
very

.          P-103



        short.  It is document No. 54 at the top of page 157
on
        the right-hand side: "Schreiben Himmlers an den
Gauleiter
        im Wartheland Geiser:  Ankundigung von
Judentransporten
        aus dem Reich nach Lodz, 18.9.1941", which means,
being
        translated, Mr Irving?
   A.   Which sentence are you reading?
   Q.   I read the heading at 54?
   A.   Letter from Himmler to Gauleiter in the Wartheland
        Greiser, forewarning of the arrival of Jewish
transports
        from the Reich in Lodz or Lodsch in Litzmannstatt, as
the
        Germans call it, on September 18th, 1941.
   Q.   I will not read the German.  Does it say: The Fuhrer
        wishes that, as quickly as possible, the Altreich and
the
        Protectorate, that Bohemia and Moravia, is it not,
shall
        be cleared and free of Jews from West to East?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Do you accept that as evidence of, I do not know what
the
        word is but it does not matter, something that Hitler
has
        told Himmler he wants done?
   A.   Yes, Hitler has taken the initiative and has ordered
the
        emptying out.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   Which is made quite plain in all my books also, of
course.
   Q.   If mere deportation from central and Western Europe is
        Hitler's idea of a losung, maybe even an endlosung,
until
        Madagascar is free, this is the date at which it takes

.          P-104



        effect?
   A.   Not precisely on this date.  It would have been any
date
        up to this date.
   Q.   From this date?
   A.   Yes.  It takes effect from this date.
   Q.   From this date.  Well, can we then leap forward in
time
        please, in this file?
   A.   Can I just express a certain amount of dismay that we
are
        having printed versions of these telegrams shown us to
and
        not the originals?  The reason for that is that the
        originals have certain paraphernalia attached to them,
        which are not without significance.  I am referring
        specifically to their security classification, because
        I intend later on to draw conclusions from documents
which
        have security classifications and documents which do
not,
        what you call janitorial level, or what I call
janitorial
        level documents, and we do not know what
classification
        this document has.  That does help us -- I am sorry to
        speak so quickly -- to classify in the other sense a
        document into its degree of importance, whether it has
the
        very highest security grading or no security
        classification.  We cannot tell from this of course
        because the editor has taken it off.
   Q.   I fear Mr Irving, I am naked in this regard.  I have
no
        originals.
   A.   Well, you do.  It was in my discovery, and it should
have

.          P-105



        been put in the bundles rather than this printed
version.
   Q.   Mr Irving, please do not let's get on to that again.
        I was trying to explain yesterday that, by oversight
or
        whatever, I think you were away for quite a long time
in
        the autumn, there was no discussion about what
documents
        you wanted included in the bundles and that is the
sole
        reason?
   A.   It is regrettable because we are robbed or deprived of
        that possibility.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  There we are.  We have to make the best
we
        can of what we have got.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, if this is something which is
troubling
        Mr Irving, which it obviously has been for some time,
if
        he has any time in the three day weekend which is
coming
        up, because we shall be going on to Auschwitz the week
        after, therefore there will not be much need to refer
to
        this kind of document, he should make a list of those
        documents in his discovery, he will know very well
which
        they are, which he would like us to copy as originals
and
        put into these bundles.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sure he will do it if he has the
time.
   MR RAMPTON:   That is what I mean.
   A.   My Lord, they were all copied for them originally.
They
        have copies of the entire discovery.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The point is to make a selection of the
ones
        that you regard as being important.  Anyway, we have
this

.          P-106



        document, we have seen what it says, it has never
really
        been in doubt, but it is a start, you say, Mr Rampton.
   MR RAMPTON:  Can we now turn, please, forward and also
forward
        in the bundle, to footnote 245.  It is in the same
file.
        Again, I apologise profusely for the fact that I do
not
        think I have the original of it.  Footnote, 1st May
1942,
        tab 25 if it helps anybody find it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are all these documents going to be in
German
        without a translation?
   MR RAMPTON:  There is a translation of this one, my Lord.
I am
        just looking for it, because it is annoying.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It just takes longer.
   MR RAMPTON:  I did observe that I think Mr Irving said he
did
        not want just to look at summaries of translations.
He
        wanted to look, so far as he could, at the original
        document.  I am respecting that until such time as
your
        Lordship tells me to ignore it.
                  My Lord, there is a summary, in part a
        translation on page 53.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of what?
   MR RAMPTON:  Of Dr Longerich's report, part 2, page 53,
        paragraph 1.3.  Have you got that too, Mr Irving?
   A.   Very shortly, yes.  Document September 18th, by the
way,
        was on page 326 of Hitler's War translated in full.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   This one is presumably on page 330.  The one we are

.          P-107



        looking at now is on page 330 of Hitler's War, the
        original edition.
   Q.   I do not suppose much of what I am going to put to you
is
        going to be controversial, save in point of
        interpretation, not translation.  There may be some
things
        you have not seen before, in which case then you must
say
        so.
   A.   I have seen this document.
   Q.   Obviously you have.  It would not be in the book,
        otherwise. It says, does it not, in effect this:
Greiser
        is writing to Himmler, and he says that the "special
        treatment" -- the word is Sonderbehandlung -- "of
about
        100,000 Jews in my district was authorized by you in
        agreement with Heydrich, and that it could be
completed
        within the next two to three months"?
   A.   "You" in this case is of course Himmler, not Hitler.
   Q.   Oh sure.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I said it is a letter from Greiser to Himmler.
   A.   Yes, but it is an important point to make.  It shows
where
        this particular system link ends.
   Q.   Well, you say that.  That is assuming that Himmler
never
        communicated any of this sort of stuff to Hitler.
   A.   I am just drawing attention to what this actual
document
        says, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   I follow that.

.          P-108



   A.   The special treatment which you, Mr Himmler, and
Heydrich
        have both authorized.
   Q.   Can we just leave Adolf Hitler out of this for the
        moment?  I am not actually on Adolf Hitler.  I will
have
        to come back him, no doubt.  I am dealing now with the
        scale and systematic nature of this operation,
whatever
        this operation may turn out to be.
   A.   Very well.
   Q.   Here in May of 1942, following an order or whatever
you
        like to call it from Hitler, that the OutReich and the
        Protectorate are to be cleared of their Jews, Himmler
gets
        a letter from Greiser saying that he can clear out,
no,
        specially handle, whatever that may mean, about
100,000
        Jews in his gaugebiet, which is the Warthegau, in the
next
        two to three months.
   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, is that the first reference to
        sonderbehandlung that one finds in the documents?
   A.   My Lord, we have had it once or twice up to this
point, I
        believe.
   Q.   I mean chronologically?
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, that is a very good question, if I
may
        say so.  I do mean it is a good question because I do
not
        know the answer.
   A.   With this sinister meaning, yes.
   Q.   There may be something in Professor Browning, I do not

.          P-109



        know.  This means killing, does it not?
   A.   In the light of what subsequently happened, yes, but
it is
        not evident from this particular document.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But not in gas chambers?
   A.   Not necessarily, no, not evident from this particular
        document.
   MR RAMPTON:  Where were the Jews of the Warthegau killed,
        Mr Irving?
   A.   I do not know, and I suspect that you cannot tell from
        this document either.
   Q.   No, but I know what went on at Chelmno, as indeed do
you,
        do you not?
   A.   We know that there was a killing operation started
there,
        yes.
   Q.   With the use of gas trucks?
   A.   That is possible, yes.
   Q.   Yes.  Well, let us look at another document in the
same
        file.  This is one you may not have seen before but,
as
        I say, I am doing two things at once so,
notwithstanding
        that you have not seen them before if you have not,
could
        you look at footnote 247?  It is just a couple of
pages on
        from the one we looked at.  This is a reprint from a
book
        call Faschismus, I do not know who wrote it, which I
am
        sure is German for "fascism".  Have you seen this
before?
   A.   I have not, no.  It is a translation into German from
the
        Polish, presumably.

.          P-110



   Q.   No, I think probably not.  If you look at item 218,
Auszug
        aus einem Lagebericht...
   A.   Yes, but that comes from a totally different
provenance,
        according to the following page.  It come from AIM,
        Gestapo Lodsch.
   Q.   How do you know what document it is that I am talking
        about?
   A.   You are talking about document 217.
   Q.   No, 218.
   A.   I am sorry.

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