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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts/day005.04


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day005.04
Last-Modified: 2000/08/01

.          P-28
   Q.   I do not know it actually.  It is very interesting, but
        I do not understand what it has to do with an answer to my
        question.
   A.   Because it was typical of the tragedies that were being
        caused by the evil genius, Dr Goebbels, in his ^^ doktrene
        insistence on the execution of these anti-Jewish measures.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think we are sliding away, are we not, from
        is what is going to be put.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am completely baffled why it is obvious that
        that diary entry is a reference to the Gottschalt
        tragedy.
   A.   Because the previous diary has been full of the Gottschalt
        tragedy and we happen to know what happened to Mr
        Gottschalt and his family.
   Q.   Shall we have a look see what the "evil genius
        Dr Goebbels" actually wrote in his diary.  Keep what you
        said he wrote open, if you please, and turn to page 338 of
        Professor Evans' report.  I remind you you wrote only
        this:  "The Fuhrer again instructed Goebbels to pursue a
        policy against the Jews 'that does not cause us endless
        difficulties' and told him to go easy on mixed marriages
        in the future."
                  Now, please, look at paragraph 1 under (D)
in
        brackets on page 338 of Professor Evans' report.  I
read
        the English first:
                  "The Fuhrer also completely agrees with my
views
        with reference to the Jewish question."  According to
        Dr Goebbels, there was no water between them in
relation
        to how the Jews should be treated.
   A.   I put my comment on that in my foot note saying, well,

.          P-29



        clearly there was because here is Hitler saying, "Do
not
        keep causing me problems".
   Q.   Let us see what he reports Hitler as actually having
        said:
                  "He", the Fuhrer, that is, "wants an
energetic
        policy against the Jews which, however, does not cause
us
        unnecessary difficulties".  Three things about that,
        Mr Irving.  The word "energetic" has been omitted by
you.
        You have omitted the word "however", "alladings" in
        German, and you have mistranslated "unnecessary",
        "unnotige", as "endless"?
   A.   The latter one I accept.
   Q.   Where is the ----
   A.   But that is not -- that does not really seriously
change
        the burden of what I have said.
   Q.   You have altered the whole sense of that sentence,
have
        you not?
   A.   May I just comment?  The word "alladings" is a much
        stronger form of "however".  The normal word for
"however"
        is "aber". "Alladings" is a much stronger word than
        "however".  It implies a much stronger contrast.
   Q.   Where is the word "enagische" in your translation?
   A.   I have not omitted that from the quoted passage.
   Q.   Oh, you have just ignored it.
   A.   No.  On the contrary, Mr Rampton, you are not obliged
to
        put in every single word from a sentence unless you
put it

.          P-30



        in quotation marks, and I will have a word or two to
say
        about that with Mr Evans when the time comes.  In one
        quotation he left out 86 words, three sentences, five
full
        stops and two semi-colons.
   Q.   Well, well, Mr Irving, I have sufficient confidence in
        Mr Evans to think that he may be able to deal with
that.
   A.   I may be able to shake your confidence when the time
        comes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Don't let us -- it not fair -- this is
the
        point that is being put to you -- the way you
represent
        this in your book on Goebbels suggests that a wholly
        passive policy towards the Jews is what Hitler is
telling
        Goebbels should be followed?
   A.   My Lord ----
   Q.   And, in fact, the word "energetic" is the opposite
        of "passive", is that a fair way of putting the point?
   MR RAMPTON:  It is another complete perversion of the ----
   A.   I have not used the word "passive".  I have not used
the
        word "energetic", my Lord.  I have left it neutral.
We
        have to bear in mind that we are not dealing with a
        transcript of what Hitler said by court reporters.  We
are
        dealing with a passage that had been filtered through
the
        evil brain of Dr Goebbels who I have shown in the rest
of
        the book has a track record of doing things first and
then
        claiming in his diary afterwards that he had the
Fuhrer's
        sanction for it.  For example, when he made Hitler
stand

.          P-31



        as Vice President which was a disaster for him in
1932,
        events like that.
                  The Goebbels' diary again and again and
again
        and the Kristallnacht, the Reich, the Night of Broken
        Glass, is another example of Goebbels doing something
        first and subsequently claiming in his diary that he
had
        Hitler's sanctions.
                  So you have to be very careful before you
use
        the Goebbels' diary as pure gold source material.  You
        have to refilter it out of that evil brain.
   Q.   Mr Irving, can we please take this in two stages?  Do
you
        agree that the version which you have given in the
book is
        completely contrary in sense to that which Dr Goebbels
put
        in his diary?
   A.   On the contrary, it is quite plain from the Goebbels'
        diaries that the suicide of the Gottschalt family had
        caused uproar in Berlin life.  This is, undoubtedly,
what
        they are referring to, the fact that the onset of the
        Holocaust in Berlin, if I can put it that way, the
        deportation of train loads of Jews beginning at this
time
        is leading to these human tragedies.  It is precisely
what
        Hitler does not want.  He is now fighting a desperate
war
        on the Eastern Front, things are turning nasty, the
rains
        have begun, the frost is setting in, and here is this
evil
        little man in Berlin who is causing him totally
needless
        problems, and Hitler saying, "By all means go ahead
with

.          P-32



        your doktriner programmes but stop causing me
        difficulties".  And this is the meaning of that
sentence.
        Goebbels has written it down in the diary and you have
to
        refilter it back into the correct sense because, you
        remember, it has been given negative spin by Goebbels
and
        you have to give it the right spin again.
                  Goebbels, remember, is an arch liar.  He is
a
        minister of propaganda.  The diaries show this again
and
        again -- an extremely dangerous weapon to use.
   Q.   He is always telling the truth when he says something
        which in your mind is favourable to him, but whenever
he
        says anything which is unfavourable to Hitler, he in
your
        mind is a liar and, therefore, you feel justified in
        obliterating that from the text of your books, do you
not?
   A.   Mr Rampton, I do not want to labour the point, but I
am
        sure you are familiar with witnesses and you know how
to
        sort out the evidence they provide which is evidence
in
        their own self-interest and evidence against their
        self-interest.  If you apply that kind of criterion to
the
        statements and diaries -- for example, what he writes
        about himself, you have to be mistrustful about, even
when
        he writes about Hitler you have to be mistrustful
because
        there is the element of the hero worship; but, on the
        other hand, what he writes about two or three, C or D,
        shall we say, in the alphabet, persons is more likely
to
        be accurate because he would have no axe to grind one
way

.          P-33



        or the other.  You have to apply these kinds of
filters.
   Q.   Yes, Mr Irving.  I will put it once more in order to
get
        the reader to think that Hitler's policy towards the
Jews
        or the policy that he wanted was really quite kind,
        gentle, much less ferocious and severe than Dr
Goebbels,
        you have actually doctored the words which Dr Goebbels
        reports Hitler having said to him?
   A.   What is the essence of this quotation, Mr Rampton?
The
        essence of this quotation is not all the rest of those
        eight lines quoted by your Mr Evans.  Yesterday the
        quotation to the words does not cause us unnecessary
        difficulties.  That is Adolf Hitler saying to
Goebbels,
         "Don't cause us unnecessary difficulties" and there
is no
        way you can talk yourself out of that particular
        quotation, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   We can echo that with what General Bruns reported and
what
        Wisliceny reported.  "Do not let us make a stink about
it,
        but let us be very energetic in this persecution,
discreet
        cautious, careful, concealed"?
   A.   Well, no doubt you will advance documents and lead
        evidence in that direction, but those very words,
Adolf
        Hitler, quoted even by the victim himself, Goebbels
        himself, at whom the criticism is being directed,
saying,
         "Do not cause us unnecessary difficulties".  There is
no
        way that your Mr Evans or you yourself, Mr Rampton,
can
        talk yourself out of those five words.  Whatever else
you

.          P-34



        want to say about the rest of that quotation and what
use
        is made of it mind.  Do you want me to have two or
three
        times as much quoted from the diary?  If I did that,
the
        book would have been 2,000 pages long.
   Q.   Do you not see a difference between "unnecessary" and
        "endless"?
   A.   No, not in burden, not in weight, not in thrust, not
in
        push, not in emphasis.
   Q.   "An energetic policy will cause some difficulties, but
let
        us do it in a way that does not cause difficulties
which
        are not necessary to the carrying out of the energetic
        policy"?
   A.   Well, the energetic policy, of course, we have
accepted;
        people were being roused in the middle of the night by
the
        Gestapo and given half an hour to pack their goods and
        packed on trains to Riga and Minsk.  That is an
energetic
        policy and there is no denial of that in this book.
   Q.   Now, I want to, if I may, go back to these table
talks?
   A.   Hitler is saying, "For God's sake, do not take it too
        far.  You are causing us a problem.
   Q.   For which you will still need Professor Evans in a
        moment.  Am I right that you gave us -- I am not going
to
        go to the transcript; it is too time consuming -- the
        impression -- you will tell me if I am wrong --
yesterday
        that these table talks were little private gatherings
        between often, not always of course, Hitler and, say,

.          P-35



        Himmler or Goebbels, the Nazi high ups, perhaps
Heydrich
        might be there as a particular honour, and, therefore,
        there was absolutely no bar, inhibition or restraint
on
        the use of direct language about what was happening,
for
        example, in the East?
   A.   Not completely right, Mr Rampton, because certain
subjects
        were taboo.  That I do grant.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   The Schierak ^^ family at the end of June 1943, when
        Henrietta von Schierak ^^ said to Hitler that she had
seen
        Jews being loaded on tucks in Amsterdam and was this
kind
        of inhumanity necessary?  There was a lot of glaring
went
        on and the family was banished from Hitler's house for
the
        rest of the war.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  All right, but the fact is I think you
were
        suggesting there was a degree of candour because
Hitler
        was amongst friends?
   A.   Well, he is talking to people whom we know were
actually
        the mass murderers, but I was asked a question, Mr
Rampton
        asked, I tried to answer honestly that, in fact, they
were
        taboo subjects.
   MR RAMPTON:  There will have been at many of these lunches,
or
        I do not know whether they were really lunches or
dinners
        or whatever, a whole lot of people who were not
Himmler or
        Goebbels, but much lower down the scale, were there
not?
   A.   People like Heinreich Heim who was Martin Bormann's

.          P-36



        private adjutant and took the initial record.  He was
        present.
   Q.   And secretaries and, what are they called, orderlies?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   People like Schmunet, Schau?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The secretary, Krista Schroeder -- people like that?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So it is hardly surprising that in that company, as
        opposed to direct face, one-to-one discussion with
Himmler
        or Goebbels, Hitler's language should be somewhat
cloaked?
   A.   That is possible, yes.
   Q.   I am going to deal with it now because I do not want to
        have to come back to it.  Do you remember, you have
        published this information (and as information certainly
        not disputed by us) there was a report, I think, in March
        1943, by Himmler's statistician, a man called ^^Korheir?
   A.   Dr Richard Korheir.

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