Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day004.18 Last-Modified: 2000/08/01 Q. Even for an idiot like me it is an easy word, it means "placed before"? A. No, "lagen" is to lay -- Q. Laid before, more gently than placed before. A. -- something which should be more impressive for me would have been the phrase (German spoken) "the Fuhrer has taken cognisance of"; you will always find that on the documents. Q. At all events, I am right it does not have any consequences for the murderers of these 363,000 Jews? A. Mr Rampton, this is not a hanging document; I think if this document were to be shown to an English jury in a murder case they would say, well, it is interesting and probably the guy did it, but I will not send him to the gallows just on the basis of this one document. Q. Probably, that is right. A. Yes, well, I have allowed that word. . P-160 Q. Thank you very much, probably, that is all I need, thank you, Mr Irving, Hitler, as we observed before is not on trial here. Will you have a look with me, please, at an earlier event, which is a table talk of Hitler's on the 25th, it was your remark -- A. 25th October 1941? Q. -- that put me in mind. Here I am afraid we are going to get involved in an argument about German grammar, but never mind, I think I can cope. On page 323 of Professor Evans' report, this comes from page 377 of Goebbels, under letter A. I will read what Professor Evans says: "In his book "Goebbels" Irving comments on the deportation of Jews from Berlin, starting in October 1941: 'Hitler was neither consulted nor informed'. As a matter of fact you know that to be untrue, do you not, Hitler was -- A. I was reading Hitler -- Q. -- I am so sorry, I quoted from the book. "Hitler was neither consulted nor informed". A. -- deported the Jews from Berlin -- I would need to read the whole paragraph I am afraid in my book before I allow a judgment on that one sentence. Q. OK. I will come back to that. That is a minor point. But if you like to we my be just to deal with this quickly. Perhaps we better have the Goebbels book to look . P-161 at. It is page 377. Have you got your own copy there? A. 300 and? Q. 377, chapter 43 entitled "Exodus". I will put it in context by reading the top of the first complete paragraph. A. By Holocaust denier, David Irving, right? Q. Yes, Mr Irving. "His mass expulsion of the Jews from Berlin was beginning. On October 14th 1941 SS General... signed the formal order as National Chief of Police and the deportations began the next day. 500 or 1,000 at a time, family by family, the Berlin Jews were rounded... in synagogue in ... loaded aboard passenger trains... freighting to the East." Then you list some of the trains. "All four were bound for the ghetto at Lodz between October 18th and November 2nd confirmed Speyer's diaries, some 400,500 Jews were'evacuated'" releasing to him... Gauleiter Goebbels one thousand ... (reading to the words) ... supposedly for bombed out Berliners ... went to their closest... Hitler was neither consulted nor informed"; about what, Mr Irving? A. About -- Q. Was he neither consulted nor informed? A. About this particular deportation phase, this wave of deportations from Berlin. Q. -- can you turn on to page 330 of Professor Evans' . P-162 report. A. 330? Q. 329. It is a few pages on from where we were, but keep your finger where I was, paragraph 2: "As far as the expulsions are concerned, Goebbels noted in his diary on 19th August 1941 that Hitler had approved them in principle: 'Apart from... Fuhrer gave me approval to ... (reading to the words) ... as soon as first possibility of transport offered itself'." Is that a correct translation of what is in it Goebbels' diary? A. Yes, it is, it is also in my Goebbels biography. Q. I did not ask you that, is it a correct translation? A. Yes. Q. You have answered my second question, and it is an entry of which you were aware? A. Yes. Q. Then says Professor Evans this: "On 18th September 1941 Himmler in fact had told his subordinate in the Warthegau"; that would be Griser (?) I suppose, would it? A. The -- Q. What? A. -- well, no, Griser was not Himmler's subordinate. Griser (?) would have come directly under Hitler. Q. It does not matter. "Himmler in fact had told his subordinate... Fuhrer wishes the old Reich and the . P-163 Protectorate to be ... (reading to the words) ... as quickly as possible. I am thus aiming to transport the Jews of the Old Reich and Protectorate if possible before the end of this year into the eastern territories ... (reading to the words) ... two years ago... as a first step, in order to move them further still to the east next spring." This is September 1941? A. Yes. Q. "One month later" says Professor Evans "on September 24th 1941 Goebbels noted in his diary that Hitler had made a final decision on the matter. I can bring the Fuhrer... of internal political problems to decide upon: the Fuhrer is of the opinion that the Jews must be taken out of the whole of Germany bit by bit. The first... free of Jews are Berlin, Vienna and Prague... I have the hope that we shall succeed even in the course of this year in transporting a significant portion of Berlin's Jews off to the East." Now I suppose you were aware of that entry too, were you not, Mr Irving? A. You suppose wrongly, that was a diary entry which I have not got. Q. It is a diary entry you never had? A. I have not got it, no, I have never seen it. Q. Then I think one has to look at page 374 of Goebbels. It may not be right. . P-164 A. I thought my memory was correct, September 23rd I have, but not the 24th. Q. Yes, I think that is right. A. It is difficult for me to remember over the last ten years to remember which entries I have seen and which I have not. Q. I would accept it in general that is probably right, you have not seen this entry? Had you seen the Himmler note or whatever it is? A. No. Q. Have you seen the Himmler document? A. The Griser, yes, of course. Q. Yes, right. It is very unlikely, is it not, that in the light of these two entries of 19th August by Goebbels and 18th September by Himmler that Hitler did not know about the deportation? A. Yes, you are right, I should have phrased it differently, I should have said there is no evidence that Hitler was consulted or informed. Q. Little point in a way, Mr Irving, but again you see these points are cumulative. Perhaps significant, because once again you are giving Hitler a clear acquittal when the evidence is suggestive that he probably did know about it? A. On the contrary, an acquittal of what? I have made it perfectly plain beyond peradventure that Hitler gave the orders for the expulsion of the Jews. And the fact he was . P-165 not informed on a particular phase of it is not exoneration. Q. So, it is only four trains or whatever it is you are talking about? A. The fact it is now beginning in Berlin, and that it is happening at this moment. Q. It is not a big point in your narrative? A. The fact that I decided to write in the short form rather than the long form part is part of the general tendency to books as short as possible. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a complete non-point, is it not? Why on earth should it matter whether Hitler was informed about these four particular trains? A. It is really a non-point. MR RAMPTON: Yes. Thank you very much. No, I am sorry, Mr Irving, unusually I have made a concession that I should not have done. You take your Goebbels book again. A. Yes. Q. This is why I need a team of 40 people, because I do not have your memory. A. Be glad you do not have my memory. Q. I have not done years of research on this subject, only a few months. 274 of Goebbels. A. 274? Q. 374, I beg your pardon. After the bit you notice . P-166 September 23rd? A. Yes. Q. There is an asterisk, then there comes this: "Hitler had confirmed to him that little by little all Jews were to be expelled from Berlin Vienna and Prague, note 91"? A. Yes. Q. Please turn to page 642, note 91, diary September 24th, 1941? A. Very good. Yes. Q. Once your memory failed you did it not, Mr Irving? A. Yes. Q. So you had seen this entry? A. Shot out of water on that one, I am afraid. Q. Yes. Why if it is not in historical terms a significant event, because you concede that Hitler had ordered the deportations generally from the Outreich and the Protectorate, and indeed from Berlin? A. Yes. Q. Why bother to mention whether or not Hitler was consulted or informed? A. When you write paragraphs you should have a topic paragraph, a topic sentence beginning -- it is a literary -- not a ploy, a device, a literary device, at the beginning of a chapter you should have a topic paragraph at the beginning of a chapter and a topic sentence at the beginning of a paragraph. It is a way of . P-167 helping the reader, a little clue to reader what is following. So what matters in this paragraph is not that opening floscal (?) as the Germans would say, not that little opening throw away line, but what then follows, which is the quotation from the table talk. I do not blame you for concentrating on a throw away line, but I am going to concentrate on the table talk which now follows. Q. This was by way of introduction to the table talk, Mr Irving. It is a little point, but I am going to suggest at the end of this case that every time Hitler floats into the picture in your books, it is in order for him to be, as it were, conferred innocence. A. Every time? Every time? Q. More or less. A. Ah. Q. There is no point in putting in that sentence except to say "poor old Adolf did not know about this beastly business", yet again. A. Mr Rampton, have you ever written books that have to sell? Q. Yes, as a matter of fact, I have. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not sure how well they sell. MR RAMPTON: Well, they are meant to be sold. A. I had an exceedingly good American editor who taught me will over again how to write books, that is one of the things he taught me, always have a topic sentence at the . P-168 beginning of a paragraph, that is what I would call a topic sentence. MR JUSTICE GRAY: But where does the reader of "Goebbels" learn this was all Hitler policy anyway to transport the Jews out of the Reich? A. I beg your pardon? Q. That is a question to you; where does the reader of "Goebbels" learn that this was all Hitler policy anyway to transport the Jews out of the German Reich? A. Probably where I quote the Griser telegram -- Q. I am sure, but where do you -- A. -- I would have to look in the index. Q. -- do not take time, you do somewhere refer to that document? A. Yes. I repeatedly say that on Hitler rests the initiative for ordering the expulsion, but what happens when they arrive there is the moot point. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I just does not have the reference in mind. A. I will find it. MR RAMPTON: It is not an important point, and I apologise if I spent a bit too long on it, but there it is. It is the next part I am truly interested in. "Ten days after the forced exodus began [he, that is Hitler] referred ... (reading to the words) ... to the way the Jews had started this war. 'Let nobody tell me Hitler added that despite that we cannot park them in the . P-169 marshier parts of Russia" By the way he added it is not a bad thing that public rumour attributes to us a plan to exterminate the Jews. He pointed out however that he had no intention of starting anything at present. 'There is no point in adding to one's difficulties at a time like this." A. I am ready for you.
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