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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts/day004.14


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day004.14
Last-Modified: 2000/08/01

   A.   I thought we had passed on from this matter.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, because I promised you that I did not
accept that that you made an honest mistake in the transcription
        of that word "haben" and if I had any more to say about it
        I would come back to it, and that is what I am now going
        to do.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Page 13, I think.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is page 14 is the transcript.  Sorry is the
        photograph and page 13 is the transcript.
   A.   Yes, I have it.
   Q.   Now I am going to do something else, if I may, Mr Irving.
        I am going to pass up to you, and to his Lordship a
        somewhat better copy than the one you gave us.
   A.   Which is completely immaterial, of course.
   Q.   So you say, but you may not think that when you have heard
        how I am going to use it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Shall we slot this into ----
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  --- that file?

.          P-123



   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  13A, my Lord, says Miss Rogers.  I will just
        ask you, I am not going to ask you any questions about
        that at the moment, I want to ask you some preliminary
        questions.  Your copy which we find at page 14 of your
        little bundle ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- was taken from what?
   A.   From a microfilm.
   Q.   From a microfilm.  Look at the one I have just handed in.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   That is a copy taken from a microfilm too, is it not?
   A.   I will take your word for that, yes.
   Q.   Well, it looks like it, does it not?
   A.   Except there is a distinction.  There is a handwritten
        No. 318 on the top right-hand corner.
   Q.   That is as may be but the fact that it is ----
   A.   No, that implies that it is taken at a different time
and
        also what looks like a staple in the top left-hand
corner.
   Q.   Yes, but the fact that it is white on black, Mr
Irving,
        suggests that it is a photocopy taken from a microfilm
        negative, does it not?
   A.   Yes, but not from the microfilm that you obtained from
me.
   Q.   How did you make your photocopy that we have here?
   A.   I took it to a Messrs Rank Xerox Limited who ran it
off on
        a copy flower machine about 20 years ago.
   Q.   Ran what off?

.          P-124



   A.   The microfilm.
   Q.   The microfilm?
   A.   They printed it out and then chopped it up and I sent
it
        to be bound.
   Q.   What I have here, is that as good as it gets or is the
        original ----
   A.   My Lord, I had the actual bound volume in court with
me
        last week and that was what I operated from.  This is
a
        photocopy from that bound volume which is as good as
it
        got.  I am quite happy to bring it into court again
        tomorrow.
   Q.   Well, it may not be necessary.  I would say I hand up
the
        better copy, only for the purposes of checking it in
case
        you do not agree with what I am going to ask you.  Can
you
        have out your English -- sorry, your typescript
transcript
        of the manuscript?
   A.   It is the previous page.
   Q.   Page 13?
   A.   Page 13?
   Q.   Yes.  I think I am right, am I not, that there are
only
        two words in the whole of this transcript which you
have
        mistranscribed?  One is, well, you have altered the
        "haben" from "Juden".  You have made it into "haben",
you
        tell us?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You have also mistranscribed "truppen" of
"truppenschule",

.          P-125



        have you not?
   A.   That is correct.
   Q.   Those are the only words you have mistranscribed. The
        "haben" is now correct?
   A.   I have only just spotted the "lappenschule"" was
        mistranscribed as well, yes.
   Q.   Yes, that is right.  Take the first line.  Look at
your
        transcript.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The word is "recrutenzahlen" which is numbers of
recruits,
        perhaps, is it?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Now look at the German, the manuscript?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The "U" has a thing like a hockey stick over the top
of
        it, does it not?
   A.   That is correct, yes.
   Q.   Look at the word, third line, which you transcribe as
        "ulab vager"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The small "b" at the end "ulab" looks like a small
"b",
        does it not?
   A.   Look likes a small B?
   Q.   Yes, it is like an ordinary schoolboy "b", is it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Look at the "U" in the next line in "tabung", again it
has

.          P-126



        that scallop on top of it, has it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Look at the word in the next entry which is a single
entry
         "flieger mel dingung"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Look at the "D"; it has a loop on the top, has it not?
   A.   Yes, if you look two lines down, please, at
"executionen",
        and on "executionen" there appears to be no little hat
on
        the U.
   Q.   That may be, Mr Irving.
   A.   That rather destroys the point you are trying to make.
   Q.   Do not try to always second guess me; it does not
really
        help.  It just slows things down.
   A.   I am just trying to help court.
   Q.  "Flieger mel dingung" has both the loop on the "D" and
the
        little sign on top of the U, has it not?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is not umlaut sign, is it?
   A.   No, it is not.  It is to distinguish the "U" from the
"N"
        in handwriting in German.
   MR RAMPTON:  Then the next line where there is an entry
against
        the name of Heydrich in Prague?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.  "Schreibdamen", you have both the "B" and the "D"
there,
        have you not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The ordinary "B" and the "D" with the loop?

.          P-127



   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Look at the last H of "Heydrich"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It looks like a capital J in English, does it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Then the first line of the entry against "Pohl
Bezuch",
        that has the little scallop on it, has it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Then "Lappenschuhe"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   L-A-P-P-E-N-S-C-H-U-H-E?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Both the "H"s look like "J"s, do they not?
   A.   Yes, but they appear to have no scallop on the "Uhe".
   Q.   It is difficult to tell because the "G", or whatever
it
        is, of whatever the "zu", I think it is, the Z loop
has
        come down on to the U, has it not?
   A.   I do not see any scallop.
   Q.   Check it against the good copy and you will see that
it
        has.  It matters not very much.
   A.   I am checking the good copy; but there is no scallop
on
        the "executionen" and quite clearly there is nothing
on
        the "U" on that one.
   Q.   But you have transcribed both those "H"s which look
just
        like "J"s to the English eye correctly as "H"s?
   A.   Yes.

.          P-128



   Q.   There is no scallop on the word you transcribe as
"Juden"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You must have known the first letter was an "H" and
not a
        "J", and it must be quite certain that you knew that
the
        third letter was not a "D"?
   A.   Mr Rampton, this is a sterile exercise.  We are
looking at
        a page that was not lying in front of me.  The page
that
        was lying in front of me was the one that was in my
        bundle.
   Q.   That is what I have been looking at.  I have been
doing
        this by using your copy.
   A.   Yes, but you had this as a cheat, did you not?
   Q.   No.
   A.   I did not have this as a cheat.
   Q.   Look at your own copy.  Ignore the good copy.  That is
        just so everybody shall not think I am making it up.
   A.   This is what we call a cheat.
   Q.   Oh, you think so?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I would not have given you the good copy in that case.
        Look at the right-hand column.  Look, for example,
         "fliegemeldung"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   That, even in your fairly poor copy, loop on the "D"
is as
        clear as daylight, is it not?
   A.   Yes.

.          P-129



   Q.   Now look at "schreibdamen", the "b" and "d" both
together?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So if you wanted to be sure what that word was at the
        beginning of the indent against the "Pohl" entry ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- you could tell perfectly well that it must be a
"B"
        and not a "D".
   A.   You have the great advantage of hindsight, of course.
You
        know what the word should read and now you can read
it.
        I did not know what the word should read.  I had this
        very, very poor copy to work from.
   Q.   Every time that Heinrich Himmler writes the letter "d"
in
        lower case, he puts that loop on it, does he not?
   A.   I do not think so; not even on the one at 1315 on the
        left-hand column.  I cannot see the loop on that.  But
        I can only repeat I regard this (and you will disagree
        with me) as a very sterile exercise.  You are looking
at
        the quality of photocopy that was not in front of me.
   Q.   I am not.  I am looking at this wretched thing that
you
        handed out yesterday.
   A.   Yes, indeed, but you had the benefit of this now to
tell
        you which letters are which.
   Q.   As a matter of fact, Mr Irving, I had the benefit of
        somebody who had bothered to learn how to read
Heinreich
        Himmler's handwriting which you had too.  Had you not?
   A.   Yes, and it is amazing that I was first person who
ever

.          P-130



        made use of these.
   Q.   Yes, Mr Irving, great credit for that, but the fact is
        that you had before you the evidence if you had cared
to
        look at it?
   A.   I disapprove of the word "cared".  Your use of the
word
        "care" implied that I perversely and deliberately and
        following an agenda misread the word when, quite
clearly,
        I did not.  Quite clearly, that is a reasonable
reading of
        that word, and as soon as the improper reading of the
word
        was brought to my attention, I immediately changed it.
It
        is the kind of thing that, unfortunately, happens when
you
        work from original records and not from sitting in
book in
        a book-lined cave which is what most of the academics
and
        scholars do.
   Q.   Well, Mr Irving, this is either deliberate or it was a
        mistake of the most colossal magnitude for a proper
        historian, was it not?
   A.   It was a mistake of a pathetic magnitude, less than 10
        cents would I give for that mistake, Mr Rampton, less
than
        10 cents on a scale of 1 to $10.
   Q.   What, when you are trying to exonerate Hitler by
saying
        that Himmler sent an order the next day to say the
Jews
        were to stay where they were?  Come on, Mr Irving.
   A.   Excuse me.  This is not that page.  This is the page
        after.
   Q.   But you run the two together in the same passage in
your

.          P-131



        book?
   A.   Mr Rampton, are you implying that the strength of that
        paragraph has been diminished by one jot, by one
comma, by
        the omission of this sentence?  Of course not.
   Q.   No, the strength of it is increased by the inclusion
of
        that sentence is what my suggestion is.
   A.   But it has not been diminished by the omission of the
        sentence in any way at all.
   Q.   That is not my suggestion.
   A.   In fact, we have even better material to replace it
with.
   Q.   My suggestion is this, that wherever you can, you
distort
        the material before you so as to put Adolf Hitler in
the
        clear so far as you possibly can.  It is quite clear.
   A.   The use of the word "distort" implies that this was a
        wilful misreading, and that is an interpretation which
        I reject here most emphatically and under oath.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, issue is well and truly joined on
that,
        is it not, now so...
   MR RAMPTON:  It is, is it not?
   A.   I think, my Lord, I will bring back tomorrow the bound
        volume of the Himmler diaries on which I worked.  I
will
        lay the actual volume before your Lordship.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It will look very similar to page 13,
will it
        not?
   A.   It will, indeed, my Lord, but in view of the fact that
        they appear to hang their whole case on this
misreading.

.          P-132



   Q.   Well, I do not think I would go that far.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, I do not think you should make that
        assumption, Mr Irving.

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