Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day004.12 Last-Modified: 2000/08/01 Q. Yes. I will read the next sentence, paragraph 2, if I may? "He did make it clear, however, that he thought the mass killings of Jews in the Second World War resulted from local initiatives in East Central Europe, not from any overall coordination by the Nazi leadership or, indeed, by any part of it. His view was that these local initiatives were excusable. It comes through clearly as well as he told at an interview in the same month in 1986, the millions of Jews or the hundreds or thousands of Jews, I am not going to name any figure, who were liquidated during the Second World War by the Germans and the Latvians or the Ukrainians or all the rest who carried out liquidations, they were the victims of a large number of nameless criminals into whose hands they fell on the Eastern Front. Mostly around Eastern Europe the liquidations occurred and these men acted on their own impulse, their own initiative, within the general atmosphere of brutality created by the Second World War in which, of course, the allied bombings had played a part". Mr Irving, that first part, leave the allied . P-103 bombings out of it for a moment because we will get on to Dresden later in the case. A. I think I am absolutely right. I think the documents that have come to light have established that a hundred times over. Q. What? A. The fact that the mindless criminals on the Eastern Front who carried out these killing operations had a motive of their own to do the killing even when they were ordered by Berlin or by Hitler's headquarters to stop and they carried on with the killing. People like Altemeyer, that young man we talked about earlier, the 22 year old, who sniggered and said, "We have got this order to stop the mass shootings but we are going to carry on anyway so no one sees it". MR JUSTICE GRAY: That may be true, Mr Irving, but it is not really the point, is it? A. Oh, I am sorry. I must have missed the point that Mr Rampton is asking about. MR RAMPTON: Yes, you have missed the point. What you are denying here is system? A. Yes, of course. Q. Yes, and you have readily ---- A. The overall system, that link that you are looking for between Berlin and Hitler's headquarters. Q. We have found it. We have found it easily going to . P-104 Heydrich. A. Yes. Q. And, no doubt, therefore, to Himmler and now we have found it going to Hitler, have we not? A. There must be something between the lines that I have not been able to read. Q. Between which lines? A. That you have read out because where is the link to Hitler here? Q. No, sorry, we are at cross-purposes. This will be my last question, I hope. The effect of what you are telling this audience in Australia, or these two audiences in Australia, that this was unauthorized criminality behind or beyond, you know, on the East? A. Yes. Q. Right. I thought we had agreed this morning in court that, in fact, and contrary to what you are suggesting to these people in Australia in 1986, the whole thing was organized and approved by Berlin? A. Again which Jews are we talking about? MR RAMPTON; We are talking about the Eastern Jews. I am being consistent. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, non-Berlin Jews. MR RAMPTON: I am using oranges and oranges. A. Yes, I think we have established quite clearly that that is ---- . P-105 Q. And that is completely contrary to what you are saying to these Australians, is it not? A. In 1986? Q. Yes. A. Where I said mind that it was the mindless killers on the Eastern Front who did the killing? Q. "These men acted on their own impulse, their own initiative", that means without orders, does it not? A. When we are talking about the German Jews? Q. No, we are not. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, we are not there. A. Well, we do not know because we have only been given these fragments of a transcript. Q. No, just focus on the question. What is being put is that what you said in 1986 about these men on the Eastern front having acted on their own impulse is at any rate now known by you not to be right because, in fact, it was authorised at the highest level, namely by Hitler? A. What was authorized, my Lord? The killing of Jews, the partisans? Q. Yes, you accepted that, I thought, a few minutes ago. A. The Jews to be liquidated as partisans, 16th December, the conversation, yes. If we can expand that very meagre note, that skimpy note, into that interpretation which I think is a legitimate expansion, certainly Hitler sanctioned the killing of the Jews on the Eastern Front, . P-106 all the rest Jews, the non-German Jews, and that has never been a matter contention for me. Q. I think what is being suggested is that what you said in 1986 can now be seen to be wrong because you were suggesting in 1986 that these killings on the Eastern Front of Jews was done on the initiative of the commander? A. They acted on their own impulse and their own initiative, yes, but, clearly, you cannot have the systematic killings without the people on the Eastern Front who are willing to kill. It is no use having a killing system if you have not got mindless killers out there who are prepared to do the killing. This is an attempt, really, to explain the mentality of the people who are doing the killing on the Eastern Front. MR RAMPTON: I will put the question one more time, then I will leave it and I will tell you where to find the full transcript of this press conference or as such of it as we have? A. Yes. I think I would like to read the whole transcript rather than just fragments. Q. You should and I tell you so if you want to glance at it overnight? A. Because both Evans and Browning have a habit of not even indicating where they have left out whole sentences. Q. They can answer for themselves in due course. A. Professor Evans on one occasion left out three sentences, . P-107 eight full stops, three semi-colons and 86 words. Q. I am going to make a joke about that and say "Good Evans!" Maybe we can get on, Mr Irving. My suggestion is this, that those words you used in Australia on those two occasions in 1986 (and it maybe we shall find some others, I do not know) are apt to suggest to the audience that this killing of the Eastern Jews on a vast scale went on without the knowledge or approval of Hitler and his cronies, all of them, in Berlin? A. If that impression is given, it is the wrong impression. Q. Yes, it is. A. By me, quite clearly. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that a convenient break? MR RAMPTON: My Lord, yes, thank you. MR JUSTICE GRAY: 2 o'clock. (Luncheon adjournment) MR DAVID IRVING, recalled Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON QC, continued A. My Lord, can I make one small correction? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. A. I am wrong about one point on that German, the date line, where it says "am", I am informed that in certain regions of Germany it is proper to use "am"; it is a dialect. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I am not surprised to hear you say so, thank you for that correction. A. Thank you. . P-108 MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, before lunch we looked at some remarks that you had made to audiences in Australia in 1986. A. 14 years ago. Q. Yes, 14 years ago. Do you take any point on the fact that those remarks were made 14 years ago? A. I just wanted to emphasise the fact these remarks were made 14 years ago. Q. Can I now show you something you said in October 1992. A. Yes. Q. Thank you. My Lord, Mr Irving will need bundle D5(ii), and D3(i). MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry D5 I have not got. MR RAMPTON: Well -- MR JUSTICE GRAY: I mean, have not got here. MR RAMPTON: Thank you, no. My Lord, I think we can supply everybody with a copy. A. D5? Q. D5(ii), page 25, I have the copy loose. I think this is a wrong reference, I am afraid. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think it must be. MR RAMPTON: I am looking, Mr Irving, I will tell you what I am looking for. I am looking at the wrong thing anyway. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it a transcription of a speech? MR RAMPTON: No, it should be a letter from Mr Marcellus dated 16th January 1992. We cannot ---- A. Yes, it is on page -- it is page 141, identified as No. -- . P-109 It is in the section after tab 29. Q. Yes. A. At page, handwritten bottom right 28. Q. Oh. A. No, it is -- handwritten at the bottom, 26. . "Dear Tom". Q. Has the judge got that? MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, not yet. A. Alternatively 25, 25 is a longer letter. It is a fax. MR RAMPTON: The reference was right. Does your Lordship have it? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I have now. MR RAMPTON: It is a fax, is it not? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. A. I was looking at this very letter only last night, in fact. Q. Good. I am only interested in the last part of this for the moment. Right at the end, you say this: "My position remains unchanged, that there were certain Mi Li type atrocities by troops in Russia, that the gas chambers and factories of death are Hollywood legends and that there is no wartime evidence of a Hitler order that what I consider in these papers is 'hearsay'." This was, was it, in preparation for an IHR conference that year, do you think? A. The second paragraph indicates that I was methodically working my way through the Eichmann papers and evaluating them, planning perhaps to do something with them at this . P-110 Institute of Historical Review, as you know. Q. Yes, because in D3(i) at I suppose tab 30, there is a transcript, I think we looked at this for another purpose not long ago, page 18, could you turn to, it is marked twice, in tab 30 of this file, we start at the beginning, so we see what it is. It is headed "the suppressed Eichmann and Goebbels papers David Irving presented at the 11th IHR conference October 1992", the date is correct, is it, Mr Irving? A. Yes. Q. Now can you turn to the page marked 172 with a stamp or 21 in print. A. Yes. Q. And you say this in the last paragraph: "Now you probably know that I am a revisionist to a degree, but I am not a revisionist to the extent that I say there were no murders of Jews. I think we have to accept", can I pause there and ask you why you use that form of words, "we have to accept"? A. The general public has to accept. Q. Why should not the general public accept? There is bags of evidence for shootings of Jews, is there not? Do I sense a some feeling of reluctance in that form of words? A. I do not consider a film with Robert Mitchum called "War of Remembrance" to be evidence which the general public . P-111 should necessarily accept. Q. Can I repeat my question "in the form of words I think we have to accept"? A. Yes. Q. Do I sense a note of reluctance in that? A. No, not at all. What you have also to remember I was speaking to an audience largely comprised of revisionists who are loath to accept this kind of thing, so I am saying to them -- MR JUSTICE GRAY: You say "we" not "you"? A. I am part of this audience, I am part of this -- part of this function. MR RAMPTON: You are really meaning, are you not -- A. Yes. Q. -- we, the revisionist movement? A. Yes. Q. --- have, and I insert the words, Mr Irving, reluctantly got to accept -- A. Excuse me, I did not say "reluctantly got to". Q. -- you do not accept that is the sense of it? A. Not at all. What I am saying quite clearly here is that that let us get one thing quite plain, we have to accept there were these mass murders on the Eastern Front. Q. So we may not wish to do? A. These are your interpolations -- Q. Yes, they are -- . P-112 A. -- manipulations and distortions -- Q. -- I was making a suggestion about what was in your mind when you spoke to this like-minded audience. A. -- so are you now a mind reader, Mr Rampton. Q. No, you said it was a conference of revisionists? A. I assume -- MR JUSTICE GRAY: The point is made, we have the answer. MR RAMPTON: The more often your Lordship pushes me in that way the happier I shall be. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I hope you will not take it unkindly. MR RAMPTON: Of course not. I am, as your Lordship knows, very used to do jury actions and sometimes old habits die hard that is all it is. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is an understandable lack of differentiation.
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