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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts/day004.06


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day004.06
Last-Modified: 2000/08/01

   Q.   That can just as easily mean kitchen utensils, can it
        not?
   A.   Could be kitchen sink.  If a photographer comes in mit
        gerat, then he would be carrying his camera and not his
        kitchen sink.  It is the appropriate appliances.
   Q.   We used to have tinkers in the old days in Scotland, Mr
        Irving.  They would carry utensils with them.  Pots and
        pans.
   A.   The Germans would have a different word for that.  It
        would be klamotten.  It would be their things.
   Q.   Anyway, your immediate interpretation of this document, it
        is clear now, is that this food was to keep the Jews well
        fed during the journey?
   A.   Well, it certainly was not for just 15 policemen.
   Q.   Mr Irving, how far is it from Berlin to Cogno, do you
        know?
   A.   Off the top of my head, I would say of the order of a
        thousand miles.
   Q.   It is about 600, in fact.
   A.   Correct.  In other words, a two or three day train
        shipment in wartime conditions.
   Q.   Those trains went very slowly because they had to keep
        stopping to give priority to other trains.
   A.   Yes. The journeys took three days.  We know the train
load
        of Jews on November 27th. It left Berlin on November
30th,

.          P-47



        it arrived at Riga and they were shot.  It is a three
day
        journey.
   Q.   That is Riga.  That is about 200 miles further East
from
        Cogno?
   A.   I am trying to give a sense of space and time.
   Q.   I am going to ask you some questions.  Again, you have
        leapt to a conclusion.  Have you actually stopped to
think
        what the evidence is that this food was to feed these
Jews
        during that journey?
   A.   None whatsoever.
   Q.   No.
   A.   But it would be perverse to assume that it was not.
        Excuse me.  If a train is provided with provisions,
then
        the provisions are quite clearly for the people on the
        train.  It cannot clearly be for just 15 escort
personnel.
   Q.   Mr Irving, would you not be so hasty.  Wait for my
next
        question, please.  Do you know how many loaves of
bread
        you can make with 3,000 kilograms and 2,700 kilograms
of
        flour?  500 gram loaves of bread, an average size
loaf?
   A.   I did exactly the same calculation as you were reading
out
        to me just now, and I thought, if there are a thousand
        people on a train, they are getting 3,000 kilograms of
        bread, then this seems to be very substantial
provision.
   Q.   In fact, it is about 6,000 loaves from the loaf figure
        alone, and about another just less than, it is about
5,400
        loaves from the flour.

.          P-48



   A.   Actually, he is talking about 3,000 kilograms of
bread, so
        that is 3 kilograms of bread per person.
   Q.   What about the flour?  Are they going to make loaves
on
        the train?
   A.   Why do we not just stick with the bread for the time
        being?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, there was flour there too.  That is
the
        point.
   MR RAMPTON:  2,700 kilograms of flour.
   A.   I have no idea what they were going to do with the
flour.
   Q.   The point is this, Mr Irving.  There is no evidence
that
        this food was going to be eaten by those Jews.  I can
tell
        you, if you do the calculation, at half a loaf a
person
        per day, they have enough bread and flour to last them
for
        24 days, 944 people.
   A.   Yes, but the reason for that is that the people at the
        receiving end are protesting bitterly.  They say, we
have
        food shortages here already and you are dumping these
        people on us, so the Reich was sending the people not
only
        with the food for the journey, but presumably enough
food
        to get them started when they arrived at the camps
they
        were going to.
   Q.   That is right.
   A.   I am speculating here, I do emphasise.  I am just
trying
        to give an explanation that may have escaped your
        attention.

.          P-49



   Q.   No, it had not, you see.  I am concerned not with what
        actually happened, Mr Irving, but your readiness to
leap
        to conclusions in favour of the SS and the Nazis on
every
        single occasion.
   A.   I strongly object to that kind of aspersion.
   Q.   This is exactly what you have done here.
   A.   I strongly object to that.  Here is a British
telegram, a
        British intercept of an SS telegram, which has not
been
        quoted by any of your experts, because of course it
does
        not fit into the perception they are trying to create,
        which presents a subtly different image of how this
        deportation programme, brutal and cruel though it was,
        initially was started by the system.  The train loads
of
        Jews were sent off with food for two or three days
and, as
        you quite rightly pointed out, enough food to carry on
        once they arrived at the other end, enough flour to
make
        their own bread.
   Q.   They had enough cornflakes for about eleven days, as
it
        happens, at 30 grammes per serving according to Messrs
        Kelloggs.
   A.   They were going to arrive in the camp, where
presumably
        the provisions would be inadequate.
   Q.   That is right.  They must have eaten their cornflakes
dry
        because there is no milk?
   A.   No doubt there were cows in Riga when they got there,
or
        Cogno.

.          P-50



   A.   Of course, how long would milk last on board a train
for
        three or four days?
   Q.   I should have thought in November, in that part of
Europe,
        quite a long time.  Would your Lordship excuse me for
just
        one moment?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, I am going to ask you this.  I do
not
        normally ask a question to which I do not know the
answer,
        but on this occasion I will.  Who paid for this food
to go
        on this train?
   A.   I do not know.
   Q.   You do not know?
   A.   No.
   Q.   You have assumed, though, from the way in which you
        characterized it last Thursday, that it was the Nazis,
the
        SS who paid for it?
   A.   I can go into some detail on this in fact.  Before the
        Jews were kicked out of Berlin, they were robbed.
They
        were robbed blind.
   Q.   So one way ----
   A.   The German Finance Office asked them to fill in a form
        listing all their assets.  These assets were formally
        seized by the German state.  Page by page of these
        documents are still in the Berlin Finance Ministry
files.
        They were robbed blind.  I am not sure what the
relevance
        is to your particular question, because I cannot prove

.          P-51



        that happened on this occasion.
   Q.   The relevance is this, Mr Irving.
   A.   I stated that in my books, too.
   Q.   Mr Irving, the relevance is this.  So far from this
being
        a dent in Holocaust, whatever you call it----
   A.   Perception.
   Q.   -- Perception, it is quite possible, is it not, that,
one
        way or another, directly or indirectly, this food was
paid
        for by the Jews?
   A.   Quite possible, yes.
   Q.   The kindly SS provision the train so far as they have
and
        the camp when they get there at the Jews' own expense?
   A.   But it is still not the perception we now have of
cattle
        trucks of Jews being shipped across Europe with no
food
        and water for three or four days and arriving half
dead at
        the other end.  It may very well have happened in the
        later phases of the war.
   Q.   Yes.  That is the trouble.  You are muddling up two
        pictures are you not, Mr Irving? There is the early
stage
        of the German Jews.  They do not even get started on
        killing the German Jews in a big way until much later
on.
   A.   If you wish to talk ----
   Q.   And then there is the much later, from the summer of
1942
        onwards, when we get into cattle truck country, are we
        not?
   A.   I remember reading in the private papers of Adolf

.          P-52



        Eichmann, which I found in Argentina, that he
describes
        the steps he took to ensure that the trains were
properly
        provisioned when they left Hungary and his indignation
        when he found that the Hungarian police officials had
        embezzled a lot of the money and food and so on so
that
        the trains were not being properly provided.  This
just
        goes marginally to what you are saying.  Undoubtedly,
        there was a lot of hardship and cruelty and barbarism.
        But the point I would wish to make is why is it that
your
        experts have not quoted the documents I have put
before
        the court.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Have you come across any other intercepts
or
        any other messages referring to the provisioning ----
   A.   There are, my Lord.
   Q.   For the transcript, just wait until I have asked the
        question --  any other documents evidencing the
        provisioning of these transports of Jews?
   A.   I have, my Lord, and I have put one or two more into
that
        particular bundle.
   Q.   I have found one more.  I am not sure I have seen more
        than one.
   A.   It is not strictly relevant, my Lord, to the
pleadings,
        otherwise I would have stuffed the bundle with even
more
        paper.
   Q.   But there are more?
   A.   I intend asking Dr John Fox.  He is an expert on these

.          P-53



        police decodes and we can ask him about them.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, tell me why you think my experts
paid
        no attention to these documents?
   A.   I certainly have not seen any reference in expert
reports
        to those intercepts relating to the provisioning of
the
        trains.
   Q.   Why would that have any relevance if these documents
do
        not suggest what you say they assert?  What if these
        documents are no more than they appear to be, records
of
        train loads of Berlin Jews going to the East with
        provisions on board for whom one knows not, but quite
        possibly to feed the Jews to some extent when they get
to
        the camp before they are shot?  What is so significant
        about that?
   A.   The relevance is, Mr Rampton, that, if your experts
are
        doing their job conscientiously, then it is incumbent
on
        them, according to their own averments at the end of
their
        reports, to do so impartially without fear or favour
to
        either side.  They should also have included any
materials
        like those which go against the notion that this was a
        systematic programme to exterminate the Jews.  If you
are
        going to exterminate Jews, you do not send them to the
        East on trains properly provisioned with tons and tons
of
        food and appliances with which they can set up a new
        future in the East when they get there, which is the
        inference which is clearly to be drawn from those
decoded

.          P-54



        messages.  I would be interested to see if you can
draw
        any other inference from those messages.
   Q.   That is what we are now going to do, as I promised you
I
        was going to do, Mr Irving.  Could Mr Irving please be
        given file H 3 (i)?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  This one I have got.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, that is the first volume of Professor
        Browning's documents.  Could we please turn to
footnote
        8?  Again, the document is identified for these
purposes
        not by any stamped or printed or typed number, but by
a
        handwritten F N 8 at the bottom right hand corner of
the
        document.
   A.   Very well, yes.
   Q.   I expect you recognize this document, do you not?
   A.   The Jaeger report.
   Q.   This is the Jaeger report.  If you turn to its 5th
page,
        blatt 5 at the top of the page, this is a copy of,
        I suppose, either an original typed or an original
carbon
        copy, I do not know.  You do not have any qualms about
the
        authenticity of this document, do you?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  For my benefit, can you say what it is?
Is
        it a report from an Einsatzgruppen.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is a report of one Einsatz commandos,
Einsatz
        Commando 3, which is part of Einsatzgruppe A, and they
are
        in charge.  Geographically it runs, A is in Ostland,
the
        Baltic states, and then B is in White Russia, C in the

.          P-55



        Ukraine and D in South Russia, roughly speaking I
think.
        Your Lordship will see at the top of the first page,
        Mr Irving as well, it has place and date, Kauen um,
1st
        December 1941.  That is perfectly good German, is it
not?
   A.   No.
   Q.   So this makes you wonder about this report, does it?
   A.   You are asking me if it is good German.  I would say
no, a
        German would say Kauen den aus December einefurtzig
(?)
   Q.   But you have seen it elsewhere, have you not?
   A.   No, I have not.

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