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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts/day003.10


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day003.10
Last-Modified: 2000/07/29

   Q.   I agree with you, I think it has verisimilitude for what
        it matters.  It is an horrendous account of an
        unpleasant -- more than an unpleasant event in human
        history.  That is not what I am interested in.  Given that
        it has verisimilitude, if you look in the middle of page
        22, one of the things that Bruns was overheard saying to
        whoever he was speaking to was this, middle of the
        page:  "I told that fellow Altemeyer?" In fact, Altemeyer,
        whose name I shall always remember and who will be added
        to the list of war criminals, listen to me they [that is
        Jews] represent valuable manpower. Altemeyer: Do you call
        Jews valuable human beings, sir?  I [that is Bruns said]
        Listen to me properly, I said valuable manpower, I did not
        mention their value as human beings.  He said
[Altemeyer
        said] Well, they are to be shot in accordance with
        the Fuhrer's orders! I said:  Fuhrer's orders?  He
said,
        yes, whereupon he showed me his orders."
                  Now that has never appeared in any of your
        books, has it?
   A.   Too true, yes, absolutely right.

.          P-83



   Q.   Why not?
   A.   I discounted it.
   Q.   Why?
   A.   Because I am familiar with other sources where people
        claim to be acting on Hitler's orders because it was
the
        ready answer to shut anybody up if somebody came and
        complained then the senior officer or the other
officer
        would say:  "Do not start criticising me, this is the
        Fuhrer's orders", and I discounted the subsequent
sentence
        about "then he showed it to me" for exactly the same
        reason that I discounted the statement at Nuremberg
that
        Eichmann claimed that the -- rather Wisliceny claimed
that
        Eichmann had showed him the orders.  There are no
orders.
        They have not been found. We have now been in the
        archives, in and out of the archives of the world for
the
        last 50 years, since the end of World War II, 55 years
and
        no primary or secondary or tertiary evidence of the
        existence of these orders has been found as regards
the
        war years.
                  I concede that in interrogations and in War
        Crimes Trials and elsewhere everyone else is happy to
talk
        about Fuhrer's orders but the fact remains had there
been
        any such order or any such document, and you are
tapping
        this one, this is what I will put in the category of
        "interrogations", had there been any such order, it
would
        have surfaced by now.

.          P-84



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You put this in the category of
        "interrogations", did you say?
   A.   It is at the end of war, my Lord, he is in the enemy
        hands.
   Q.   He is being surreptitiously...
   A.   I appreciate that, my Lord, but it is in a grey area.
He
        is in the enemy's power and custody and I draw
attention
        to the line a bit earlier up where he says:  "His name
        I shall always also remember and who will be added to
the
        list of war criminals".  That is a gentle hint to me
that
        perhaps he is not entirely unaware that somebody may
be
        listening.
   MR RAMPTON:  What do you know --
   A.   You must appreciate that, my Lord.
   MR RAMPTON:  What do you know General Bruns?
   A.   -- what do I know of him?
   Q.   What do you know of him, yes.
   A.   Only what I know from this document and from the
writings
        of Gerald Fleming.  I suppose we would describe him
now as
        been an anti-Nazi by the time the war ended, but then
a
        lot of people were anti-Nazi by the time the war
ended.
   Q.   --- what if they happened to be an anti-Nazi all
along,
        there were such people in German during the 1940s,
were
        there not.
   A.   Undoubtedly, yes.
   Q.   Quite a lot of the ordinary army, I am not talking
about

.          P-85



        the SS, who are not army at all, really, were anti-
Nazi?
   A.   Is this the evidence that you are leading, I am not
        familiar with any statistical basis for that.
   Q.   I am suggesting you could give me the answer "yes"?
   A.   I have not seen any documentary evidence of that.  I
do
        not think GALLUP Polls are conducted among the
Wehrmacht
        soldiers who still support Adolf. I always want to see
        this kind of evidence and if I can just -- if I can
just
        add here we have got very high quality evidence of the
        morale and opinions of the Germans. We have the SD
        stinnungsberichge, which were the morale reports where
        Gestapo agents would hang around in bars listening to
what
        people said. We have sacks and sacks of captured mail,
        captured by the Allies when a troop ship were caught
or
        when positions were overrun.  We know exactly what
these
        people were writing. So we are very well informed
about
        what was going on.  I have never seen any kind of
        statistical analysis.
   Q.   If this is not an interrogation, which it plainly is
not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And if General Bruns does not know that he is being
        recorded, and if it be the case that he simply is
chatting
        to his fellow prisoners in German, which he is, am
        I right?
   A.   While you just read that, may I just add a further
point,
        we are dealing here with a 22 year old young man
called

.          P-86



        Altemeyer who has been put in SS uniform.
   Q.   I am sorry, Mr Irving, there are times when you may
make
        speeches and times when you must answer my questions,
this
        is one of them; you said yesterday, no, I think this
is on
        Day One?
   A.   I will come back to what I was about to say when you
have
        finished.
   Q.   "This document has, in my submission, considerable
        evidentiary values... it is not self-serving, the
General
        is not testifying in his own interest, he is merely
        talking, probably in a muffled whisper to fellow
prisoners
        at a British interrogation centre and he has no idea
that
        in another room British experts are listening to and
        recording every word.  We also have the original
German
        text of this document.  I might add my, Lord ... "
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That, I think, was Mr Irving's speech.
   MR RAMPTON:  That is Mr Irving's speech. That is on page 46
--
   A.   Can I make it easy for you, Mr Rampton, and say I
accept
        Altemeyer did say those words.
   Q.   -- right.
   A.   Or as best as Bruns recalls them.
   Q.   The whole of Bruns' account in this regard has the
ring of
        truth then?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So it is likely also then, is it, one cannot be
certain,
        one was not there.

.          P-87



   A.   It is very likely that the SS officer concerned used
those
        words.
   Q.   It is likely also he used the words at the end of this
        extract on the bottom of page 24 of your opening:
"Here
        is an order, just issued, prohibiting mass shootings
on
        that scale from taking place in future" --
   A.   Have we now left that previous passage, if so --
   Q.   -- I am coming back to it, but I want to try and be
        consistent, if you are saying that we can believe that
        Altemeyer used the words in the first passage, can we
also
        believe that Altemeyer said this:  "Here is an order,
just
        used, prohibiting mass shootings on that scale from
taking
        place in future"?
   A.   -- that I believe.
   Q.   "They are to be carried out more discreetly."
   A.   That I attach less credibility to.
   Q.   Why?
   A.   It is the kind of throw away line that soldiers would
use,
        particularly in captivity, adding a gag, looking for a
bit
        of a snigger from someone, saying not to be done on a
mass
        shooting, of course, has to be done a bit more
        discreetly.  If I can draw a comparison, you very
rightly
        read out a passage of a speech I made in Calgary where
        I protested that I had been called a mild fascist by
the
        newspapers and I said I do not like that word "mild"
it is
        a throw away line, you are looking for a laugh.

.          P-88



   Q.   I do not --
   A.   You then attach great weight to the fact Mr Irving
        obviously accepts he is fascist, which is untrue.  But
        these things happen in conversation, Mr Rampton.  It
calls
        for judgment and integrity before you use any
particular
        part of a sentence.
   Q.   -- no, you misjudge me, Mr Irving, you should re-read
what
        I actually said and you will find what you just said
is a
        misrecollection.  However, that matters not in the
        slightest.
   A.   Can I now go back to the previous part you are relying
on
        in that, where he says "here are the Fuhrer's orders"
and
        he showed it to me.
   Q.   He did not say that.  He said "whereupon --" this is
        important, Mr Irving, you must be accurate, this is an
        important distinction: "Whereupon he showed me his
        orders"?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is Bruns speaking, not Bruns quoting
        Altemeyer?
   A.   Altemeyer says, well, they are to be shot in
accordance
        with the Fuhrer's orders, Bruns said:  Fuhrer's
orders?
        Yes, says Altemeyer, whereupon he showed me his
orders.
   MR RAMPTON:  His orders?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   That does not mean the Fuhrer's orders, that means
        Altemeyer's orders?

.          P-89



   A.   I am grateful to you for drawing that to my attention.
If
        you wish to infer from that that he showed to Bruns
orders
        from Hitler, or orders quoting orders from Hitler,
because
        he later on talks about the Fuhrer's orders, can I now
        comment on that?
   Q.   I am not going to comment on a suggestion I have not -
-
        I am not going to invite you to comment on a
suggestion
        I have not made.
   A.   May I nevertheless comment?
   Q.   No, Mr Irving, you may not.  If his Lordship permits
it,
        why, yes.  My question is a completely different one;
my
        question is this, it is credible that Altemeyer said
what
        he is here reported as having said?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It is also credible, is it not, that he showed Bruns a
        written order saying that these people were to be
shot?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Good, thank you very much.  Put those two things
together,
        and there is evidence here which needs to be taken
into
        account; do you agree?
   A.   Discounted or taken into account, yes.
   Q.   Take into account, brought to the attention of the
public
        or the historians so that they can make up their own
minds
        whether or not this is evidence of a Fuhrer order for
        these shootings?
   A.   You are absolutely right .

.          P-90



   Q.   Thank you.
   A.   Can I continue?
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   I have done precisely that.
   Q.   Where?
   A.   On my website.
   Q.   Yes, but what about your books?
   A.   I am not writing books about the Holocaust, Mr
Rampton,
        I am writing books about Adolf Hitler. The book is
already
        1,000 pages long.  If I was to start going into that
        detail then I would be sternly reprimanded by the
editors
        saying, Mr Irving, when I wrote the Hermann Goring
        biography, the American publishers came to me and said
        Mr Irving will you please cut out 2,000 lines from the
        printed text.  This happens.  We do not have a problem
        that our books are too short, we have the problem that
our
        books are too long.
   Q.   Yes.  Mr Irving --
   A.   But the entire document is on the Internet and I am
the
        one who placed it there.
   Q.   -- Mr Irving, you have made reference to this Bruns
        testimony in your published books?
   A.   As I said in my opening speech, again and again, it is
the
        most harrowing account and element of the Holocaust.
   Q.   But without ever mentioning either of these verbal
        exchanges in their entirety?

.          P-91



   A.   Absolutely right.
   Q.   Why not?
   A.   Because this is descending into a level of textual
        analysis which would bore the pant off an audience,
which
        would be totally out of place in a book about Adolf
Hitler
        for which I am perfectly prepared to discuss here in
court
        if you attach importance to you, but you do not want
me to
        discuss it.
   Q.   I am not trying to prove a case about Adolf Hitler one
way
        or the other?
   A.   But you will not allow me to discuss it here.
   Q.   Of course I allow you discuss it here.
   A.   You stopped me.
   Q.   I interested in why it makes no appearance --
   A.   Because I have reasons for discounting it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Discounting bits of it I suppose would be
        more accurate.
   A.   -- I am discounting the bit about being shown the
Fuhrer's
        order, or being shown orders implicating Hitler.
   MR RAMPTON:  Why do you discount it?
   A.   Ah, at last.  Because other evidence shows that Hitler
had
        not issued the order; firstly I said that nowhere in
all
        the documentation of all the world's archives has any
such
        order turned up.

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