Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day003.01 Last-Modified: 2000/07/29 IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE 1996 I. No. 113 QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION Royal Courts of Justice Strand, London Thursday, 13th January 2000 Before: MR JUSTICE GRAY B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING Claimant -and- (1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED (2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT Defendants The Claimant appeared in person MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and Second Defendants MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt (Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell & Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4 Telephone: 020-7242-9346) PROCEEDINGS - DAY THREE . P-1 < DAY 3 Thursday, 13th January 2000 MR DAVID IRVING, Recalled. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving? MR IRVING: May it please the court, with your Lordship's permission, I have brought the bundle of the documents that we were referring to last night. Unless your Lordship would see any reason against, I propose rapidly stepping through these documents, pausing at the ones which are significant as far as we can determine so far from the direction and thrust of the cross- examination. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. You are in the middle of your cross-examination. So, in the ordinary way, we will wait and see when the documents became relevant to Mr Rampton's questions. MR IRVING: They have been in discovery throughout, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow that. But I suspect most of them are going to become relevant to the answers you are going to be giving to some of the questions Mr Rampton is asking. MR IRVING: I do apprehend it will be useful to the court, I appreciate that it is your Lordship's court, but I believe it will be useful. MR JUSTICE GRAY: You may well be right. I cannot really tell, I have only glanced at it. Shall I ask Mr Rampton -- because he is cross-examining, so, on the face of it, he has the right to continue to cross-examine. . P-2 MR RAMPTON: I have no objection. In a sense, it is either evidence-in-chief in anticipation of cross- examination, or it is what one might call "premature re-examination". MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. MR RAMPTON: One way or the other it is going to make no difference. MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you are happy I will not stand in the way. Before that happens I wonder if I could mention one or two administrative points? The first is, I think we are all agreed through nobody's fault, this is not a very suitable court and I am very concerned that there are members of the public who, I think, are not able to get in and listen and want to. Having made enquiries, as I said I would, I think there are two possible courts to which we could move which were not available or were not thought to be available when we started. One is court 73, which I have looked at and looks to me to be much better than this in almost every respect. There is, apparently, another one, which is in Chichester Rents in Chancery Lane, which is even bigger. I think I would have some slight personal preference for 73, but what I wanted to ask you is that I think we should move anyway, because this is not satisfactory and it seems to me, unless you are going to tell me there are insuperable problems, tomorrow is the day to do the move. Are you in agreement that that is the right thing to do? . P-3 MR IRVING: I would have suggested doing it over the weekend although I have no logistical problems myself -- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I think they have a lot of problems ahead of them, but I think it is better to do it now than to struggle on and regret it every day from hereon. MR RAMPTON: That would suit us awfully well, if we could make a fresh start in what I call a "proper big court" on Monday morning. MR IRVING: Not a fresh start. MR JUSTICE GRAY: We will decide -- not a fresh start. MR RAMPTON: No, thank you. MR JUSTICE GRAY: We will decide during the course of today which it is going to be and, obviously, let you know. We will take it that on Monday we will be in a different court. MR RAMPTON: May I ask where exactly 73 is? MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is where all those new Court of Appeals are. MR RAMPTON: In the East Building. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. MR RAMPTON: In the end I would have to say, my Lord, it is a matter for you. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is, if you have strong feelings. MR RAMPTON: No, I do not know Chancery Lane much at all anyway. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is point one. . P-4 The next relates to the TA Law Transcripts which are being done. Really, I think I am saying this on behalf of the lady who is doing the transcribing. She is having the most appalling task. She is here all day, and she is by herself, as it were. It would help her if we could slightly slow down. Mr Irving, you speak fairly rapidly anyway. That is not a criticism at all. MR IRVING: I thought I was speaking slowly. MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you can bear in mind there is somebody trying to take down what you say, if we can try to remember to spell out the German names when they crop up for the first time. That is going to make everybody's life much easier. There is one other point on the transcripts. The Day 2 transcript starts at page 104. My own feeling (and I do not know whether you share it, Mr Rampton) is that it would be better if every day started at 1, so you have Day 2, page 1, rather than page 104. I am told that is physically possible. So that is what I think we will have in the future. That is all that I wanted to raise except that, Mr Irving, I have seen (and I do not know whether Mr Rampton has) your letter about the letter to me about the article in the Stuttgart press. Do you know about it? MR RAMPTON: No. . P-5 MR IRVING: I was going to ask, my Lord, I might, having given the Defendants time to consider it, if I might address the court briefly on the matter after the lunch adjournment? MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you would like to do that, that is fine. Mr Rampton? MR RAMPTON: I have no comment until I have seen it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not suppose you will, even when you have. MR RAMPTON: I see. My Lord, the only thing I would mention about the transcript, I do not know what the cure is. Is that, normally speaking, of course, one can deduce what it was, but here and there -- this is not a criticism of the transcriber, far from it -- one sees in square brackets the word "German" which represents something that has been said in German. That is going to repeat itself indefinitely in that case. I do not know what cure is. Whether the word should be spelt out each time. It is a terribly laborious way of dealing it, or whether we supply at some stage when it is important a list of what we suppose was the word used. As I say, most of the time one can deduce it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it actually going to be all that much of a burden to spell it out or, at any rate, spell out the key words in the document? I am thinking yesterday "liquidierung". One can spell that out. MR RAMPTON: There is going to be more of that today. . P-6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow. MR RAMPTON: Perhaps spell it out? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am inclined to think so. I think that is the best way. It is going to slow things down. Would you prefer it, both of you? MR RAMPTON: Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is going to slow things down, but it needs to be done that way. So, Mr Irving, would you like to take me through the... MR IRVING: Page 1, my Lord, this is a letter -- the sole purpose of this letter is that it indicates the date when I really made use of the Himmler telephone notes, being 1974; some 25 years ago, 26 years ago. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask you this? You there transcribe judentransport, J-U-D-E-N-T-R-A-N-S-P-O-R- T, in the singular, and that is in 1974. MR IRVING: We have check the original in the German. You are absolutely right, my Lord. You are absolutely right. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. MR IRVING: In a very vague, and, of course, I am still considering myself to be under oath as I make these remarks, in a very vague way my recollection is that time I regarded the word "transport" as not just meaning like a transport train or one consignment, or a transport ship in the way that you would talk about a convoy of 26 transports but also in the sense that transportation. . P-7 I consider that the words judenstransport meant "transportation of Jews". MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I note that you make that point. MR IRVING: This is an alternative inference but now I am quite happy to accept that this particular discussion from external evidence only referred to one particular transport of Jews, and I am indebted to your Lordship for having reminded, or took me back into the mind set of 26 years ago. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. MR IRVING: As you know, my presumption is, I will just read the middle paragraph that Hitler had become an active knowledge bearer or accomplice in the destruction of the Jews only in 1943. This is of course a translation of the following page, my Lord. From the attached page, which is a facsimile, which we will see in a minute, it is evident that Himmler, arriving at midday on November 30th, 1941, in the Wolf's Lair, which I explain was Hitler's headquarters in East Prussia, after a brief conversation with Hitler immediately had to telephone Heydrich in Prague, and then comes the phrase, "judentransportest aust Berlin keine liquidierung", which I believe the shorthand writer already had from us. If you take this in conjunction with various other entries, e.g. that of 17th November 1941, in which Heydrich informs the Reich Fuhrer, that is Himmler, on . P-8 conditions in the general Uberman, Poland. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is SS Reich Fuhrer. MR IRVING: Well, Reich Fuhrer SS would be the full title. There was only one Reich Fuhrer in German -- conditions in the general government Poland-geting rid of the Jews, Beseitigung, this can only indicate that Himmler has been rapped across the knuckles by Hitler. This conversation note has until now evidently slipped through the fingers of the historical research community, as you might call it. Then the other two lines at the bottom are not without interest in the chain of documents I refer to, my Lord. Himmler had to issue a similar "holt" order in April 1942 on account of the liquidation of the gypsies, again after a brief visit to Hitler. "I thought this might be of interest to you." You will see that document too, my Lord, in this bundle. Because it is false to try and draw inferences from one document without looking at other documents in the series. I appreciate in court it is difficult to do this. My Lord, the next document I am going to draw your Lordship's attention to is 03 at the foot of the page. This is another document that was in discovery. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have read that. That is you asking Professor Hinsley whether he has any more information.
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