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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts/day002.20


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day002.20
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   And then we started this little digression, if you
        remember, by your asking me what I meant by "systematic"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I said and you agreed there are all those meldungs
that go
        back to Heydrich's office?

.                                      P-274



   A.   Halfway up the hierarchy.
   Q.   Or whatever, but quite a long way up, halfway up the
RHSA,
        he is head of the RHSA in Berlin?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   He is quite close to Himmler?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Who is quite close to Mr Hitler?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Then this was another example designed only to
illustrate
        this, that a reputable historian might well conclude
that
        this document would not have surprised Adolf Hitler
one
        bit?
   A.   Might not have.
   Q.   No.  Well, surely, use your imagination, Mr Irving, if
        I am Adolf Hitler I am king of the German world, as it
        were, and this is put in front of me and it represents
        something that I do not approve of, I am going to go
        through the roof, am I not?
   A.   I do not say he did disapprove of the killings of the
Jews
        on the Eastern Front.
   Q.   He did not?
   A.   He did in December 1941 in the case of the German Jews
        being killed.  He was quite plain.  I mean Himmler
sent
        the message which the British decoded ordering the man
        responsible to come immediately to headquarters, but
the
        killings on the Eastern Front of the Russian Jews and
the

.                                      P-275



        others, Hitler did not care about them.
   Q.   This is South Russia, the Ukraine and Bialystok which
is
        on the border then of Poland and Russia?
   A.   Still the Eastern Front according to my map.
   Q.   Though by 1942 quite a long way behind the Eastern
Front?
   A.   It is the rear Eastern Front area. It is the area in
which
        the SS still operated.
   Q.   It is miles away. It is right over, well, as you say,
        Stalingrad.  This is the height of he battle for
        Stalingrad?
   A.   But it is the area in the rear of the Eastern Front
where
        the Einsatzgruppen had h task of pacifying and
cleansing.
   Q.   Before I move on to something else, do you distinguish
in
        your own mind a sensitivity in Hitler towards the
murder
        of central or western Jews, German Jews, and the
murder of
        363,000 Eastern Jews?
   A.   I am not sure what that question means, but if I say
that
        one of his staff, Walter Havel, whose diary I had,
said
        that if you want to understand Hitler's attitude to
        humanity was the way that a man might look on an ant
heap,
        and that is how he regarded the Eastern peoples
whether
        they were Jewish or not, but he very definitely
intervened
        to stop the killing of German Jews at the time that
        I specified.  So there was clearly a distinction in
his
        own mind at that time.
   Q.   We are talking about two events a year apart.

.                                      P-276



   A.   Well, you are talking about two events a year apart.
Also
        you are talking about the giving of the order and the
        receiving of meldung.
   Q.   Yes, surely, but that is in a completely different
        context, Mr Irving, as you very well know.  You use
what
        you say as Hitler's opposition to the Riga killings as
        having some kind of relevance to this document.  Tell
me
        what the relevance is?
   A.   Hitler clearly intervened, if we can assume that the
fact
        that the telephone call in the first place was made
from
        Hitler's bunker, and if we know that the next day
Himmler
        was ordered to send or Himmler was required to send a
        radio message to the man who had carried out the
killings
        telling him that he had overstepped the mark, that he
had
        to follow the guidelines in the future with outsettled
        Jews, the ones sent from Germany, in other words, and
this
        is clearly an indication that German Jews were kept in
a
        different category because the killings then stopped
as
        the historians agree for several months as far as the
        German Jews were concerned, but the killing operations
of
        non-German Jews behind the Eastern Front continued and
        obviously, according to this document, on a huge
scale.
        I can only repeat why are we wasting our time looking
at
        this document which I have printed in my books, which
        I agree is authentic, I am not going to challenge the
        authenticity of it.

.                                      P-277



   Q.   Or the likely conclusion to be drawn from it that
Hitler
        will have seen it?
   A.   We have agreed that it is probable that given that is
says
        "forgaleg" it is probable that it was shown to Hitler
        because that is the phrase they would have used.
   Q.   You deny, however, that there is any evidence that the
        shootings in East were systematic in the sense that
they
        got up and were approved, got up to and were approved
by
        the highest level?
   A.   To justify the word "systematic" I would want to not
just
        one out message and one in message which is all we
have
        separated by 18 months, I would want to see a flow of
out
        and in and out and in, in the way that we are
accustomed
        to seeing them in the archives.
   Q.   You have read what I call in shorthand the EMs coming
in
        from the East to Heydrich's office, have you not?
   A.   They go up to Heydrich's office and hey are detailing
        purely these security operations.
   Q.   Security operations.  I mean they list killings of
        hundreds of thousands of Jews, as Jews, as Jews, not
as
        partisans?
   A.   Well, let us have a look at all the other ones and see
how
        they are categorized.
   Q.   We will do.
   A.   I agree that the Jews are being brought in under that
        umbrella.  They are being killed under that
camouflage.

.                                      P-278



   Q.   You are familiar with the Jager report, are you not?
   A.   Yes, but I very much hope we are going to have a look
at
        the original.
   Q.   We are going to have a look at the original.  We
certainly
        are.
   A.   It comes from the Russian archives.
   Q.   I want to be sure, because I do not want to do you any
        disservice at the end of this case.  I want to make
sure
        I have your position clear.  You do not accept that
that
        document, let alone its forerunner, you say it is not
a
        forerunner, back in August 1941 is any evidence that
the
        killings in the East by shooting, not by gassing, but
the
        killings in the East by shooting is any evidence at
all
        that this was a systematic process approved of at the
        highest level of the Third Reich?
   A.   That is my position.
   Q.   I see.  Thank you very much.  Now I want to pass to
        something different.  What you will need now are
copies of
        your two books, 1991 Hitler's War and Goebbels Master
Mind
        of the Third Reich.  You will also need in case we
need to
        refer to it, a copy of your opening yesterday.  You
will
        need D2 (i) (ii) and (iii).  Forgive me, Mr Irving, I
am
        just trying to find the document.  I apologise for
that
        pause, my Lord.  Mr Irving, yesterday you made quite
        something of this document from the PRO which records
        statements made ----

.                                      P-279



   A.   The Bruns document?
   Q.   --- by General Bruns but secretly recorded?
   A.   That is true.
   Q.   You told us that this document has considerable
        evidentiary value.  It is not self-serving?
   A.   Not self-serving, yes.
   Q.   And that it has the ring of truth from the phraseology
and
        the things he describes, is that right?
   A.   Yes, very similitude.
   Q.   Yes.  Do you have a copy of it with you or can you
tell us
        where to find it?
   A.   Well, the text is in my opening speech of course.
   Q.   I will try to use the same version as you.
   A.   Page 22.
   Q.   Yes, page 22.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is not 100 per cent accurate I
remember
        noticing, but I do not think there is any real
        difference.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am just checking, my Lord, to see whether
the
        two little passages which I have are the same.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, the one right at the end.
   MR RAMPTON:  There is one, as your Lordship says, right at
the
        end.  As far as I can tell at a quick glance, the
words
        which Mr Irving has printed in his speech are the same
as
        I have on the document.  So perhaps we can use the
        speech.  In the middle of the page just below the
middle

.                                      P-280



        of page 22, Mr Irving, General Bruns reports having,
as it
        were, been subjected to the experience of one of these
        Riga shootings.  He reports that a man called
Altemeyer
        said to him upon his protest at the use of, at the
misuse
        of he waste of valuable manpower, Altemeyer said:
"Well,
        let it be shot in accordance with the Fuhrer's orders.
I,
        that is Bruns, said:  Fuhrer's orders?  Answer from
        Altemeyer:  Yes. Whereupon he, Altemeyer, showed me,
        Bruns, his orders."  Yes?
   A.   That is correct, yes.
   Q.   That is what is in the PRO document.  Therefore,
        presumably, General Bruns actually said that?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And was recorded as having said it by Allies.  If you
go
        right to the end, the narrative is that they managed,
        Bruns and his colleagues managed, to get back to
Berlin,
        perhaps to Canaris, an account of this shooting,
perhaps
        in the form of an objection, is that right?
   A.   My reading of the document was -- in fact, we know
also
        from other sources -- Gerald Fleming had done some
very
        good work on this particular episode, that an Army
        Lieutenant wrote a report, having been sent down the
road
        to go and have a look for himself by these cowardly
German
        Generals, and this Army Lieutenant's report was sent
over
        the Army Lieutenant's name up to Hitler's headquarters
by
        the route of Admiral Canaris who was the Head of the

.                                      P-281



        German Intelligence Service.
   Q.   Can I start at the bottom of the next page 24 where
        "Canaris" begins a line, do you see that?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "Canaris had the unsavoury task of waiting for the
        favourable moment to give the Fuhrer certain gentle
        hints.  A fortnight later I visited the
Oberburgermeister,
        or whatever he was called then, concerning some other
        business.  Altenmeyer(?) triumphantly showed me:
'Here is
        an order just issued prohibiting mass shootings on
that
        scale from taking place in future'.  They are to be
        carried out more discreetly.' From warnings given me
        recently, I knew that I was receiving still more
        attentions from spies", etc.
                   "They are to be carried more discreetly in
        future" means the shootings are to be carried out more
        discreetly in the future?
   A.   I would even go so far as to say mass shootings.
   Q.   Yes.  It does not mean that the mass shootings were to
        come to an end, does it?
   A.   Not in that sentence, no.
   Q.   What it means is that they must be more cleverly
disguised
        from anybody who might notice what was going on?
   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Just whilst you are on that document, you
        told us, I think, that Bruns would have been a
Colonel.

.                                      P-282



   A.   He was a Colonel at that time in the Engineer Corp.
and he
        was a Major-General at the time of his capture in
1945.
   Q.   And Altenmeyer, presumably, was his superior officer?
   A.   No, sir.  Altenmeyer, his real name was "Altemeyer",
        without an "n", he was a 21 or 22 year-old very junior SS
        officer who just happened to have the lives of these
        unfortunate people in his power.

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