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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts//day029.08

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day029.08
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

   Q.   Certainly.  "To my disenchantment, the Australian
        television team spent some time in the foyer interviewing
        obvious Nazi crack pots, so I shall stop co-operating with
        them and they can whistle for tomorrow's interview, then
        that is the Australians".
   A.   That is right.

.          P-65

   Q.   "I had one of the crack pots informing the Australians
        loudly that Rupert Murdoch is obviously a secret Jew.
        Aargh! I shall set out early for Key West.  That is the
        end of this mini book I am speaking to".
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So there were a lot of Nazi-looking types?
   A.   Nazi crack pots, yes.
   Q.   Nazi-looking types.
   A.   "Nazi crack pots" are the words I use.
   Q.   Nazi-looking types, Mr Irving.  You did not like that
        because you thought that that appearance could be
        exploited against you by the television crew.
   A.   I did not like it because that is not my chosen company.
        I cannot prevent -- it is a free world, particularly in
        the United States where they believe in the freedom of
        speech -- I cannot stop people wearing what they want;
        I cannot stop people cutting their hair the way they want
        to; I cannot stop people coming into a public meeting, but
        I express my obvious displeasure at it.
   Q.   A bit like those nice friendly young men we saw in the
        video tape of Halle in 1991.  It is nothing to do with;
        you cannot help it if Nazi, Neo-Nazi ----
   A.   Is it the ones waiving the red flags or their opponent?
   Q.   No, the red flags were not your opponents.  Professor
        Funke told you clearly that was one sections of the
        neo-Nazi movement in Germany.

.          P-66

   A.   That is why there is a long line of police holding them apart.
   Q.   Mr Irving, can we now look at page 14.  This is you at the
        what I call the National Alliance event in 1998, two years later.
   A.   You call it the National Alliance event?
   Q.   Oh, there is no question.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The fact is that they there were National
        Alliance events, so you were wrong to suggest that I was
        guilty of a slip of the tongue.  You may be whether you
        knew about it knew that that was the organisation.
   A.   This is 1998, my Lord, and I held up to your Lordship the
        invitation which has no reference whatsoever on it to
        National Alliance, no logo, no inverted CND sign, just a ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:   Wait for the question.
   MR RAMPTON:  Let us look at the diary entry at the bottom of
        the page, shall we Mr Irving: "July 25th 1998.  Tampa
        Florida", again.  Then there is a square bracket with
        three dots in it.  I am coming back to that, Mr Irving.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "5 p.m.  Over to Bess Western.  Good function at 7 p.m.
        About a 100 there.  Good book sales".  Vincent Breeding,
        remember him from 1996?
   A.   Yes, he learned his lesson from my lecture.
   Q.   He is the National Alliance organiser, is he not?

.          P-67

   A.   That I do not know.  I am sorry, that I did not know, let
        me correct that.
   Q.   "Better behaved this time.  His young men were dressed in
        suits or blazers, standing impassively at the corners.  No
        skinheads, neo-Nazis, thugs or jack boots in evidence.  No
        doubt, the press will tell their readers otherwise".  What
        you worried about, Mr Irving, is not the presence of
        neo-Nazis.  You are worried about the dent in your public
        image, the public knowledge of the presence of neo- Nazis
        will make, are you not?
   A.   No, I am worried about the press lying.  I have seen press
        reports in this courtroom saying the courtroom is filled
        with skinheads in the audience, and I do not think any of
        us have ever seen that.  That is what has been in the
        press reporting around the world on this particular trial,
        that my skinhead supporters are packing the benches here.
        I am very familiar with this kind of press reporting.
   Q.   Mr Irving, I said I would come back to look at that
        ellipsis in square brackets we find in that diary again.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I would like you to look at a couple of documents,
        please.  This is also taken, partly from a discovery and
        partly from a document which you produced in court.
        Mr Irving, you said repeatedly in this court, when
        cross-examining my expert witnesses, that you have
        disclosed the whole of your diaries.

.          P-68

   A.   On disk, yes.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   You have received them on disk.
   Q.   If you look at the first of these documents ----
   A.   Let me just qualify that, please.  I disclosed all of
        those that were discoverable.  I may be wrong but my
        belief is that the diaries were discoverable up the time
        the writ was served.  Am I right, my Lord?
   Q.   Oh, yes.
   A.   And when was the writ served, September 1996?
   Q.   Look at the entry for 2nd June 1998.
   A.   Which is after the writ was served.
   Q.   That depends, Mr Irving.  Your analysis of law is a little short.
   A.   Perhaps we ought to ----
   Q.   Discoverability depends not on the date of the writ; it
        depends upon, subject to legal professional privilege, relevance.
   A.   Perhaps his Lordship can lecture me on this point, but you
        ask me whether I had disclosed everything that was -- you
        put to me the sentence that I had withheld nothing --- -
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, come on, let us not waste time on
        this.  It is quite obvious that you disclosed something in
        relation to June 2nd 1998 ----
   A.   Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, and now would you look at the second sheet,

.          P-69

        which is what you produced in court.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  ---  and that is after the writ.  The point
        is that there is an ellipse in what you disclosed, as I
        understand it.
   A.   Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  If you look at the second two pages of that little
        clip -- it is two and a half pages, this is something you
        wanted to use in court so you produced it for our
        edification during the course of this trial.
   A.   No, I did not.  Which one?
   Q.   The large three-page document.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Headed "June 2nd 1998, Chicago Illinois".
   A.   No, you asked me for the summary of the Himmler letters to
        his mistress, and I have gave that entire summary, that
        entire day's entry in my diary.
   Q.   That is an entire entry in your diary?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So, it is not right to say that we have had the whole of
        your diaries, is it?  Look at the difference in length.
        This is four lines long and this is two and a half pages.
   A.   Perhaps we should have a lesson from his Lordship about
        what is discoverable and what is not.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let me take it in the sequence which I
        understand it to be in.
   A.   The writ was served in September 1996.

.          P-70

   Q.    Do not worry about whether the writ was served; that has
        nothing to do with it.  You, is it right, originally
        disclosed an extract from your diary of June 2nd 1998
        which consisted about four and a half lines?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   There was then, as I understand it, a request from the
        Defendants that you disclose more of that entry whereupon
        one gets ----
   MR RAMPTON:  No.  It was something that Mr Irving himself
        produced voluntarily to answer some question about the
        Himmler diaries.
   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right.  So then you voluntarily disclosed
        additional from that day's diary entry?
   A.   About 10 days ago, yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  So we must not be misled, must we Mr Irving, to
        thinking that the diary entries that we have in this court
        are anything like the complete diary entries?
   A.   His Lordship is aware of the fact that a lot of private
        material that has been taken out, a lot of personal
        material to which you are not entitled.
   Q.   Of course. I, being the lawyer here, Mr Irving, or one of
        the lawyers, have no problem with the obliteration (that
        calls a Court of Appeal authority for it), from disclosed
        documents of material that is irrelevant, or that is
        legally professionally privileged, no problem at all.  My

.          P-71

        question here is, in relation to 25th July 1998, there is
        an ellipse, does that ellipse disguise a reference to the
        National Alliance or not?
   A.   That is a very proper question and I will certainly have
        it answered.  I can send you the entire diary entry.
        I will even ask you for undertakings, but I think that
        I can say with honesty that, to my knowledge, I have
        redacted nothing out of the diaries which is properly discoverable.
   Q.   What do you know about the British National Party, Mr Irving?
   A.   I know more about them than I know about the National Alliance.
   Q.   Tell me what you know about the British National Party, please?
   A.   What the Germans call a "verlorenes Haufen" -  a lost
        heap, a band of hopeless right-wingers going nowhere.
   Q.   But you speak to them, do you not?
   A.   No.
   Q.   Or you have done?
   A.   No.
   Q.   Tab 5, please, in the right-wing extremist file, page 2A
        for example, diary entry for some date in June 1983,
        second paragraph:  "4.30 p.m.  Train to Leicester.  Spoke
        there to 27 people at a British National Movement meeting
        organised by Ray Hill".

.          P-72

   A.   You are asking me about the British National Party, right?
   Q.   Yes.  What is different between the British National
        Movement and the British National Party?
   A.   I am not totally ignorant.  I assume there is a
        difference, otherwise I would have not written that.
   Q.   Turn over the page, please.  This is 17th July 1990, a
        letter from ----
   A.   Seven years later.
   Q.  --- Geoffrey D Brown.  "British National Party, Yorkshire
        region.  Dear Mr Irving, further to our telephone
        conversation today, I am writing to confirm that we would
        be very happy for to you come up to Leeds on Friday 14th
        September to address a special northern regional meeting
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   " ---  whilst the bulk of the audience will no doubt be
        from the BNP.  It is expected that there will also be
        people attending from other groups such as the Monday Club
        Yorkshire Area and something called English Solidarity".
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Last line:  "Again, many thanks for accepting our invitation".
   A.   Yes.  It is very similar to the functions in America where
        somebody who is a local functionary of some political
        group is inviting me to come and address an umbrella body

.          P-73

        which all sorts of functions will come.  If you look at
        the diary entry which covers ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, come on, that is letter on the
        stationery of the British National Party.
   A.  --- all these jumped up people, you notice he then gives me
        his private address to reply to.  He is inviting me as a
        person, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are you inviting me to accept that this is
        not an invitation to speak, and an invitation by the
        British National Party to speak at a British National
        Party meeting.
   A.   He says that the bulk of the audience will, no doubt, be
        from the BNP, and that I accept.  It is also going to be
        totally hybrid.  There are going to be people from the
        Monday Club which is another disreputable group, and
        English Solidarity.  If you look at my diary entry which
        is on page 5, my Lord, you will see that there is not the
        slightest reference to me being at the BNP function.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, you do give the most appalling hostages
        to fortune, if I may say so.  Please turn to page 7.
   A.   Perhaps I can say that this is mark of an honest witness,
        that I am speaking from memory, I have not prepared for
        this, I have not rehearsed.  We are all hostages, not so
        much to fortune as to bad memory, looking at events in
        1983, which is 17 years ago and 1990 which is 10 years ago ----

.          P-74

   Q.   Now we are coming to 1993.
   A.  --- and I speak at, as I have said many times, 190 or
        sometimes 200 functions a year.
   Q.   Page 7, please.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "British National Party, in Kent.  Dear Mr Irving, the
        British National Party is organising a rally in central
        London on the afternoon of Saturday 6th November.  It is
        expected that several hundred people will attend.  You are
        hereby invited to attend as a guest speaker".
   A.   And I refused.
   Q.   You refused?
   A.   End of story.

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