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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts//day029.07

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day029.07
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

   Q.   "Across the room there was a table set up for the National
        Alliance with books, fliers and cassette tapes.  I picked
        up a selection of the material on offer.  This material is
        at appendix pages 11 to 106", and so on and so forth,
         "including a flier advertising Mr Irving's books, a
        handwritten photocopied flier advertising Mr Irving's next
        lecture and a publication entitled 'David Irving's Action
        Report dated 20th July 1998'."
                  Now, Mr Irving, can we have just a quick look at
        the policy document?
   A.   Well, I will just draw your attention once more to the
        page before it, page 1, which makes no mention whatsoever
        to this being a National Alliance function.  Do you accept that?
   Q.   I accept it does not say it.  I certainly do not accept
        that you did not know that it was.  That is quite

.          P-56

   A.   Well, if it was a National Alliance function, then
        why would it not have said so on the actual flier?
   Q.   Perhaps because the National Alliance are slightly nervous
        about making too much publicity for themselves outside the
        magic circle?
   A.   Your own witness said there was no evidence of it being a
        National Alliance meeting.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You have made that point; I have taken it on board.
   A.   So what possible relevance, whatever leaflet was on the
        table 100 feet away from me ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am bound to say I regard it as being
        relevant to know what sort of an organization it is that
        you have addressed on three occasions?
   A.   My Lord, I object to the suggestion that I was addressing
        an organization.  I was addressing my people who had come
        from all over Northern Florida to hear me speak at a
        function organized by this gentleman.  I am sure it was a
        slip of the tongue, but I would hate it to go on the
        record unchallenged.
   MR RAMPTON:  Inside the front cover, "What is the National
        Alliance?" we read this:  "Building a new White world", do
        we not?
   A.   What are we looking at?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Headline.

.          P-57

   MR RAMPTON:  "Building a new White world".
   A.   80?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Oh, sorry.  I think it is called C1, tab 2,
        page either 3 or 80, according to your preference.
   MR RAMPTON:  We notice, as I said a moment ago, the date of
        this document is 1993, so it was written before your visit
        to Cleveland in 1995, your visit to Tampa in 1995 and your
        visit to Tampa in 1998?
   A.   It is another lie, Mr Rampton, I am afraid.  Look at page
        9 -- I am sorry, page 86.  Top left-hand corner of the
        box.  Do you see some figures there?
   Q.   Yes, yes, Mr Irving.  The copyright date is 1993.  This
        may be a revised or updated version perhaps.
   A.   Well, I am telling you this document appears -- I am
        saying I have never seen it before -- to be dated October 1996.
   Q.   In which case it was in existence at the date of this
        speech by you at Tampa 1998, was it not?
   A.   Yes, but you cannot rely on it for what happened in 1993.
        I may be wrong but ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think you are wrong, but I am not sure it
        tremendously much matters.
   MR RAMPTON:  That is one of the areas where it matters not
        least to me whether you are right or wrong, Mr Irving.
        Can you turn over the page, please?  I am not going to
        wade through all that acres of sludge on the first page

.          P-58

        all about -- I will read "Summary statement of belief", if
        I may, bottom right-hand column:  "We may summarize in the
        following statement the ideology outlined above.  We see
        ourselves as a part of nature, subject to nature's laws",
        nothing very controversial about that, one may think?
   A.   I do not know where you are.
   Q.   "We recognize the inequalities which arise as natural
        consequences of the evolutionary process and which are
        essential to progress in every sphere of life".  Again,
        somewhat uncontroversial.  "We accept our responsibilities
        as Aryan men and women to serve for the advancement of our
        race in the service of life and to be the fittest
        instruments for that purpose that we can be."  Then if you
        turn over the page we are beginning, Mr Irving, you may
        agree, to enter familiar territory.
   A.   In what respect?
   Q.   In the respect that this is, one might think, simply an
        English, a modern English American version of Nazi ideology.
   A.   So what?  I mean, so what?  What has that got to do with me.
   Q.   "White living space".  You fuel these people with your
        thoughts about the Holocaust, Mr Irving, that is why it
        has got to do with you.
   A.   Well, has it occurred to you I may go there and correct
        their opinions?  I read them the documents they do not

.          P-59

        want to hear.  Has this possibility occurred to you?
   Q.   When did you last address a meeting of the South Balham
        Trotsky Society, Mr Irving?
   A.   Mr Rampton, you are perfectly familiar with my policy
        which says I accept invitations from whichever body
        invites me, left or right.
   Q.   Mr Irving, my question was put ----
   A.   If they choose not to invite me, that is their own loss.
   Q.   No comment, Mr Irving.
   A.   Well, you asked me a question and I gave you an answer.
   Q.   The answer to my question is never, is it not?
   A.   If they invite me, I will come.  I cannot force myself on them.
   Q.   "White living space".  "In spiritually healthier times,
        our ancestors took as theirs those parts of the world
        suited by climate and terrain to our race, in particular
        all of Europe and the temperate zones of the Americas, not
        to mention Australia and the southern tip of Africa",
        note.  "This was our living area and our breeding area and
        it must be so again.  After the sickness of
        multiculturalism which is destroying America, Britain and
        any other Aryan nation in which it is being promoted, has
        been swept away, we must again have a racially clean area
        of the earth for the further development of our people."
        Does that reference to the "sickness of multi-culturalism"
        in Britain have any resonance for you, Mr Irving?

.          P-60

   A.   Not really, no.
   Q.   You do not remember the remarks you made in South Africa
        about God working out the Final Solution remorselessly by
        means of AIDS against homosexuals and blacks?
   A.   I think if you are going to rely on a passage like that,
        you should see the actual words that I used in the context
        I used them.
   Q.   Do you remember the remarks ----
   A.   In particular, use the actual words and not your
        vulgarized recalled version.
   Q.   Do you remember the remarks you made about feeling queasy
        when you saw black people playing cricket for England?
   A.   Yes, because they are better than us.
   Q.   Do you remember ----
   A.   And I am sorry about it.
   Q.   Do you remember that you reported that it gave you a
        shudder when you were welcomed at Heathrow about Pakistani
        immigration officials?
   A.   And it turned out that you associated the word "Pakistani"
        with coloured when I would have been equally queasy if it
        had been a German standing there checking my passport --
        probably even more queasy.
   Q.   Do you remember saying that you wanted Trevor McDonald,
        the famous black news reader, relegated to reading the
        news about muggings and drug busts?
   A.   Have you never listened to Dave Allen on television

.          P-61

        telling similar jokes and not being prosecuted for racial
        incitement?  If somebody tells a joke about a black man
        and a Rabbi and a Irishman, is that serial racism?  I
        mean, where does hypocrisy end and real indignation start?
   Q.   Shall we read on?  "We must have White schools", all these
        "Whites" have capital Ws, I point out, "we must have
        White schools, White residential neighbourhoods and
        recreational areas, White workplaces, White farms and
   A.   I think you will find the Daily Telegraph also capitalizes
        the word "White" and "Black".
   Q.   All you are doing is putting a number of other rogues in
        your gallery, Mr Irving, by these remarks.  However, let
        us read on.
   A.   You have upset at least one Correspondent, I am afraid.
   Q.   "We must have no non-Whites in our living space", and you
        know from their definition that that includes Jews as
        non-Whites.  "We must have no non-Whites" ----
   A.   What an extraordinary remark.
   Q.    ---  in our living space us and we must have open space
        around us for expansion", etc. etc. etc.  Then read down,
        drop your eye, please, to "an Aryan society":  "We must
        have new societies throughout the White world which are
        based on Aryan values and are compatible with the Aryan
        nature.  We do not need to homogenize the White world.
        There will be room for Germanic societies, Celtic

.          P-62

        societies, Slavic societies" -- in that respect more
        generous, perhaps, than the Nazis -- "Baltic societies and
        so on, each with its own routes, traditions and language.
        What we must have, however, is a thorough rooting out",
        Ausrotten, Ausrotten, Mr Irving, "of Semitic and other
        non-Aryan values and customs everywhere".
   A.   All very interesting, but what has it do with me?
   Q.   It has everything to do with you, Mr Irving.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, you say that this is, as it were,
        news to you.
   A.   I read it with the same interest that your Lordship has.
        These people have obviously ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If you just wait for the question, then you
        will see what I am wanting to know.  How do you react to
        this sort of stuff?
   A.   It is a most appallingly badly written piece of propaganda.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:   Badly written?
   A.   I am reading it now for the first time and it is
        head-shaking stuff, is all I can say.  I keep on saying
        what is it doing in this courtroom frankly.  I am sure it
        interests Barbara Gutmann no end and it interests the
        Defence no end, but it does not interest me in the
        slightest this kind of stuff, because wherever it was it
        was not within my cognisance and I do not intend to retain
        it in my memory quite frankly.

.          P-63

   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, can you put aside that file; I do not
        think I need to come back to it, that National Alliance
        document, and take back the RWE 1 file, please, and turn
        to page 14.
   A.   RW1?
   Q.   RWE 1, yes, in tab 2 where we were and turn to page 14,
        please.  First of all, actually I think we had better
        perhaps start at page 11, as this will give us the context
        for what you write on 25th July 1990.  The entry for the
        7th December 1996, again at Tampa, and again I suggest
        quite obviously a National Alliance meeting, leave the
        first line: "I shook off the Australians around 2 p.m.".
        They were the Australian film crew that were following you
        around, were they not, Mr Irving?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "And scooted on ahead to Tampa, arriving at 4 p.m.  Set up
        room nicely".
   A.   I set up the room, in other words; it was not somebody
        else setting up the room for me.
   Q.   So you must have seen the National Alliance banners, must
        you not?
   A.   Were there any?
   Q.   We have seen them on film, in this courtroom.
   A.   On this particular occasion?
   Q.   Yes.  This film that we have shown in court.  We did not
        show the whole of it.  We just saw you standing on a

.          P-64

        podium you speaking like an inverted CND sign, the
        National Alliance banner a few feet away from your left shoulder.
   A.   Yes, of course it must have been that because that was the
        Australian film.
   Q.   Exactly.  "Set up room nicely.  Good audience at 7 p.m.
        Around 90 to a 100 people.  Their book sales were not
        commensurate.  Too many young people.  I gave a few books,
        too, to lighten a load and I had four boxes of Goering
        (that is your book) to each hard paperback with P and
        his/her name is not given to us".
   A.   No, Pat Ryan.
   Q.   "Vincent Breeding decided he had to deliver a Nazi-type
        introduction and preparation which I tried hard to defuse
        by my remarks about that and the Swastika t-shirts, Nazi
        tattoos, etc., will give the Australians any amount of
        ammunition to use against me in their feature.  What
        short-sighted, mindless types I am surrounded with.
   A.   Will you please read on.

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