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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts//day028.13

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day028.13
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

   Q.   Would you accept that the "Bewegung" I am referring to is
        the revisionist movement?
   A.   I have to read it, otherwise -- here at the top, at the
        bottom, yes, decide what to do with who is damaging the
        Bewegung by his antics in his close contacts to the media.
   Q.   And my question is, the word "bewegung" is a reference
        purely to the revisionist movement?
   A.   Maybe this is true, and by this you are saying what you
        alluded to a minute ago, that there is a difference
        between revised history, and in that sense revisionism,
        and the revisionist movement.

.          P-118

   Q.   And the reason I am writing a German word is because Mr
        Zundel is German, is he not, sometimes you get a better
        nuance using a German word?
   A.   To be honest, I am not sure what is all is included if you
        say "bewegung".
   Q.   If it is the revisionist movement then, of course, it is
        not just Holocaustism, it is about Dresden, about
        Nuremberg, about Rommel. It is the whole of all the talks
        I delivered to any of these organizations with the
        revisionist theme?
   A.   The revisionist theme, revisionist movement means so far
        I got it especially to revise German history.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   In a special direction.
   Q.   Yes.  Over the page, if you look at the sentence beginning
        with the words "needless to say" --
   A.   Where is it, excuse me?
   Q.   -- on page 86.
   A.   86?
   Q.   A letter I am writing to Ernst Zundel at the beginning of
        the fourth sentence down "is needless to say"; does that
        paragraph imply to you that I am determined to keep within
        the law of whatever country I am in?
   A.   I just have read it, excuse me.
   Q.   Even in private I am warning these people I will not do
        anything that infringes the law of my host country.

.          P-119

   A.   According to the -- where is it stated?
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   Where is it stated, in the middle?
   Q.   The third paragraph on page 86:  "Needless to say I have
        the utmost faith in you. You are a professional.  You know
        the law in both Canada and Germany and keep within it so
        far as I can judge"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I have respect for the law.
   A.   This is true.  You, in this letter you try to, you
        present, observe the law, right, and you did it often in
        these kind of letters, yes.
   Q.   And this is not a letter that has been written for window
        dressing, is it?  It is not a self-serving letter in your
   A.   What is self-serving?
   Q.   Just for the purpose?
   A.   That is difficult to assess, because it is of course for
        the windows, that is to say for the lawyers and that makes sense.
   Q.   That is your opinion.
   A.   And you ask about my opinion, and on the other hand it
        make sure of your own purpose.
   Q.   Yes, that I am determined that nobody should even think of
        doing something that would infringe the law; is that fair?
   A.   The letter shows that.

.          P-120

   Q.   Page 90, moving on rapidly, there are references there to
        a meeting organized for me by a Dr Drayher (?) who was a
        very prominent member, as you say, of the Christian
        Democratic Party; is that one of the ruling parties in Germany?
   A.   It was.
   Q.   It was.  So he is not an extremist, is he?
   A.   No, as a member of the party, but with respect to his own
        convictions and visions we have to look, we have to have a
        closer look on his wording.  I did.
   Q.   In other words, he may have had political incorrect
        thoughts in the privacy of his own home in Germany, which
        is a problem, is it?
   A.   That is your language.
   Q.   Germany, you agree is a much more sensitive area than the
        free world like England and the United States?
   A.   Yes, by reason, because of we --
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have been into this. I have stopped that
        question twice today.
   MR IRVING:  Well, very well.
                  Page 93, please, paragraph 5.72, here you begin
        paragraph, quite rightly, by saying:  "In an unusual move
        Irving took the initiative in his own hands in attempting
        to organise the years' tours"; does that not tell you that
        as of 1st January 1992 Althans was finished as far as
        I was concerned?  I no longer built on him?

.          P-121

   A.   To put it differently you very angry very often about the
        behaviour of Althans, yes.
   Q.   Yes, page 98, the first paragraph, you quote a newspaper
        there, The Independent, which says that I spoke in Poland?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And you are aware, of course, that I have never been to
        Poland in my life.  So this is the problem we have with
        sources that we use, is it not?  Sources sometimes can be
        very wrong?
   A.   No, no, I was very cautious, I just said the journalist
        for The Independent suggested that Irving spoke in Poland
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   That is it.  We have to at least put it to the court that
        there are other, you know, sayings, and I so far I see
        I have to check it again, that I did not take side with,
        I did not take side to this.
   Q.   Page 01, please, the first paragraph, several names here,
        Althans, I am speaking at various meetings; can you see
        from that paragraph what the topic is?  Is it
        anti-Semitism?  Is it the Holocaust, or is it a scientific
        lecture on the Goebbels diaries which I just retrieved
        from Moscow, and is it also a talk on the Nuremberg
        trials?  Organized by these extremists, according to the
   A.   There is a reference to Nuremberg.

.          P-122

   Q.   Yes.
   A.   There is a Goebbels reference here, but if you say
        I believe.  The other thing is what you are saying when
        you were referring to Goebbels, and there we come to
        another point.
   Q.   Yes, but that is one of the other experts.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Page 127, please.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The last paragraph beginning "although".
   A.   Would you be so kind just to show it to me, because I put
        it out, I do not know why.
   Q.   127.
   A.   No, I have not it here.
   Q.   You are quoting from the Munich City authorities decision
        to ban me from the German Reich.
   A.   From the what?
   Q.   From the German Reich, this is the ban imposed on me by
        the Munich City authorities, was it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The last paragraph beginning with the word "although",
        I draw your attention to the second and their lines in
        square brackets.  I am going to ask you, you are not
        implying that I am in any way connected with the
        terrorists attacks or attacks on foreigners' hostels or
        anything contained in those square brackets?

.          P-123

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not see how anyone can possibly think
        that he was.
   MR IRVING:  If he just says "no" that will resolve the matter.
        He puts it in his report that "his extremism in its most
        extreme form"?
   A.   I did not by any means, in any sense of this whole report
        rely you personally directly to this kind of atrocities.
        But what has to be --
   Q.   Relate.
   A.   -- relate, excuse me.  But I just quote the decision of
        the authority and the authorities said, OK, this kind of
        talking, this kind of -- and I can put it wordly (sic),
        this kind of rhetoric is in the special moment of our
        history, in the early 1990s, very dangerous, because of
        the widespread of this violence, of these thugs in Rostock
        and where else.  They did not use the word "thugs", but
        you know activists of right-wing extremists and skinheads
        and others who did this violent attacks against foreigners.
   Q.   Can I put it to you that the fact that a visiting British
        lecturer is talking to groups about Goebbels diaries or
        Nuremberg or Dresden is not in the least bit connected
        with what happened in Rostock and it is very, very
        far-fetched for anybody to suggest the opposite?
   A.   Yes, of course, but I want to remind you to the Halle,
        speaking in the surrounding things of Halle.

.          P-124

   Q.   Yes.  Can I take you now to page 130, paragraph 7.3, the
        second indented paragraph, beginning:  "In the coming
        weeks", this is the letter that I have written to Mr Wiesal?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "Film will be supplied from England to avoid problems with
        our traditional enemies", namely in Germany.  Right?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Now to whom do you take the phrase "our traditional
        enemies" to be referring there?  The enemies of free
        speech?  The international Jewish conspiracy or whom, if
        I can put it like that?  My Lord, this has nothing to do
        with the extremist topic, but it is to do with the meaning
        of the words "traditional enemies"?
   A.   I mean --
   Q.   Can it possibly be taken as meaning Jews?
   A.   -- it can be, yes.
   Q.   In what way?
   A.   You did it in the speeches and I --
   Q.   In this letter?
   A.   -- I do not know.  I have to read it carefully.  Just a second.
   Q.   The position of the Defence is that I used the phrase "our
        traditional enemies" as being coterminous with the Jews.
   A.   Again, we should go to this video. This is of special
        importance, but of course it is not a direct -- what is

.          P-125

        it?  Reference.
   Q.   Quite clearly --
   A.   To a special group, but often it is the case and I cannot
        say it is the case here, that you are referring to --
   Q.   -- the reference here is --
   A.   -- to the international Jewry.
   Q.   -- international authorities or the German postal
        authorities or somebody like that, is it not?  Which is
        why it has been distributed from England and not from Germany?
   A.   I do not know.  I cannot say.
   Q.   But to repeat my question, in this particular case it
        cannot be a reference to the Jews, can it, the answer is "no"?
   A.   Yes, I think you are right.
   Q.   Yes, thank you.
                  My Lord, we are now coming very briefly to the
        list at the end, the appendix --
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving I am sorry.
   MR IRVING:  I have done it wrong again, have I?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  You asked several questions about the
        way in which this film was going to be supplied to
        Germany.  I understand why you did, but you have wholly
        omitted to ask anything about what Professor Funke says
        were the contents of this video, which I notice has you
        saying, and I think you ought it challenge this if you

.          P-126

        disagree with it, that the death factories did not exist.
        And whoever claims to the contrary puts up a blood lie
        against the German people.  Surely that is the nub of the
        case that is being made against you in relation to the
        video; not how you manage it convey it to Germany.
   MR IRVING:  Well, it is two part piece of proof here, my Lord.
        The reason I asked the questions I just have is to
        establish in your Lordship's mind firmly the fact that the
        phrase traditional enemies of the truth, or the
        traditional enemies did not refer, as Mr Rampton quite
        properly suggests to your Lordship, that it refers only to
        the Jewish community.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think he was talking about the use of that
        phrase in a different context.
   MR RAMPTON:  I do not say it is coterminous, all I say is that
        it is very often used by Mr Irving to indicate something
        that is apparently called the "international Jewish conspiracy".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, but leave that on one side.  If you want
        my view you are plainly not referring to the Jews when you
        talk of traditional enemies, in that context, but the
        reason I have intervened is that I am puzzled by your not
        having tackled Professor Funke --
   MR IRVING:  The particular sentence --
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  -- About what you are said to have said in
        the video.  I do not know whether you did or you did not

.          P-127

        because I have not seen the video but that he is what he
        is claiming in paragraph 7.7.
   MR IRVING:  The sting of that particular sentence but the death
        factories did not exist.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, well, I mean if you not challenging it, fine.

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