The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts//day028.10

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day028.10
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

   Q.   But have you ever heard of them?
   A.   Yes, but I do not know if they are banned.  I have to look
        up later on.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   But it is not of interest ...
   Q.   But you just say that they are right wing extremists,
        although you obviously do not know very much about them?
   A.   This is the point you want to make?
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   Then I have to look up more precise than...
   Q.   Well, unless his Lordship attaches importance here,
        I think we will move on.
   A.   OK, good.

.          P-89

   Q.   The impression I had was that you are relatively
        unfamiliar with these bodies and that you were willing to
        express an opinion on them, nonetheless?
   A.   So what did I say?  So now come to the point, please.
   Q.   When I asked you were you familiar with them you said,
        well ----
   A.   No, no.
   Q.   --- yes and no.
   A.   What did I say on these groups, little groups?  What did
        I say?  What did I say to present them?  What did I say?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What Mr Irving said you said was that you had
        said that they were right-wing extremist organizations,
        but I am not quite sure where you are supposed to have
        said that.
   MR IRVING:  I asked if they were, my Lord, and he said, yes, he
        thought they were, but this was after he had said he did
        not know very much about them.
   A.   Yes, this is right.  They are listed in this hundreds of
        groups of right-wing extremist tiny groups, and it is of
        interest that you spoke there and that they are perceived
        as right-wing extremists.  I can look it up, I mean, of
        course if you want, so I looked it up but I have to
        refresh my memory.  I think this is valid to do.
   Q.   You are going back to the consensus, are you?  Are you
        going to have another look at the consensus of all the
        social sciences?

.          P-90

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It was you who asked the question, Mr Irving?
   A.   Whatever you call it, I do not care.
   MR IRVING:  I am quite happy to abandon this question
        because  ----
   A.   No, no, I want to know it.
   Q.   Do you not say on 5.3.32 that they were fictitious
        organizations, 5.3.32?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  They will not be in your book if they were
        fictitious, I suspect.
   MR IRVING:  I am trying to speed things up.
   A.   Just a second.
   Q.   I will be quite happy to move on.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, whilst the witness, he is
        obviously very keen to look up and I understand why.
        I think you have been ----
   A.   Yes, this is one of this little group without ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Professor Funke, can you just pause a moment
        because I just want to say something to Mr Irving.
        Mr Irving, I think you have been cross-examining for
        nearly a day now.  I have to tell you that I am not much
        the wiser as to what your case is in regard to what this
        witness has said, namely that there are these individuals
        with whom you have a close association and they are all on
        the extreme right-wing fringe.  I cannot let the
        cross-examination go on.  I keep asking you to focus on
        what matters.

.          P-91

   MR IRVING:  On individuals.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  And you are continuing to go through
        footnotes and trivial points.  I think the point has come
        where, unless Mr Rampton discourages me, I must say to you
        you must at 2 o'clock put your case in relation to these
        individuals and the organizations so that I understand
        what it is, because I do not think it is right for me to
        let the court's time be taken up with cross-examination
        which seems to me to achieving virtually nothing.
   MR RAMPTON:  Can I add to that?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I would like to hear Mr Rampton on this
        because I do not want to be over strict.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, I embrace that because I have no idea what
        Mr Irving says about these people's political attitudes,
        (a) what their political attitudes are, and (b) whether he
        knows what they are.  That is essential. What is also
        essential is that he should say yeah or nay, does he
        propose that these meetings which he attended were in
        their content entirely innocent?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think it has to be done.
   MR IRVING:  That is for cross-examination.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, it is not;  I do not know what Mr Irving's case is.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I want to make every allowance for the fact
        that you are in person and you have had an appalling task
        cross-examining witness after witness, expert witness

.          P-92

        after expert witness, and there is an enormous volume of
        material you are having to deal with.  But, in the end
        what matters is these individuals and the associations
        that they had or did not have with you.  You must do it.
   MR IRVING:  Well, I believed I was working through this report
        name by name and, effectively, devaluing the quality of
        the evidence that had been given to suggest, except for a
        number of key names which we are all familiar with.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, what you are not doing, it is perfectly
        true that you pick up the odd name like Karl Philipp, or
        whatever it may be, and you make one or two -----
   MR IRVING:  That is the way the report has been written.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You ask one or two questions by reference to
        individual diary entries, but you are missing the wood for
        the trees again.  What I need to have you put to this
        witness is, "I did not ever meet with Karl Philipp or
        I may have spoken at meetings at which he was present, but
        I did not know it" or "Yes, we used to associate quite
        regularly together, but there is nothing particularly
        right-wing about him".  Put your case.
   MR IRVING:  I can do that in 15 minutes, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I do not want you to telescope it too
        much, but what has taken place this morning has really
        not, I think, advanced your case on this aspect of this
        trial at all.
   MR IRVING:  Well, I hoped that I was shaking your Lordship's

.          P-93

        confidence in page after page after page of this report,
        which is initially impressive, but then once we take out
        the OPC reports, it becomes very much thinner.  Once we
        take out the names of people I have never even met or
        heard of it becomes frequently sparse and fragmentary.
        Now we can deal with the people whose names I have heard
        of and deal with them in short order.  For that reason I
        will go to the appendix and look at the names that we have
        highlighted, the people on the list, and put the
        propositions directly to the witness ----
   MR IRVING:  --- that your Lordship is suggesting.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  I think that is the right way to do it,
        but do not feel confined -- when you are on a relevant
        topic, I do not want you to cut your cross-examination
   MR IRVING:  There are matters like the Adolf Hitler toast that
        was organized by Ewald Althans and things like that, and
        I would hate to let that go by the board.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, that should not be let go because that is a
        point I seek to be of some importance.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I mean, I cannot dictate the way you
        cross-examined, but if I had been doing this instead of
        you, I would have taken the individuals, I think I would
        have taken them one by one, and I would have gone through
        the alleged association to see how much of it there really

.          P-94

   MR IRVING:  My Lord, you have considerable more experience than
        I do in cross-examination and some of your clients have
        ended up in prison and some of them, no doubt, have been
        acquitted and have been awarded large sums in damages.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is kind of you to put it like that.  Now
        let us get on with the cross-examination.
   MR IRVING:  I am totally ignorant in the manner of how to deal
        with these things.  I will certainly take the 5.3.35, we
        will deal with 5.3.35.  My Lord, I do feel we have
        achieved things this morning, for example, establishing
        agreement that at most of these meetings I have rubbed
        their noses in the Bruns Report, things like that, which
        I hope your Lordship will not overlook when the time comes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have that answer, yes, certainly.
   THE WITNESS:  Can I just answer the question?
   MR IRVING:  Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What about those three organizations?
   MR IRVING:  Very briefly.
   A.   The [German] quotation in the bundle No. 2, bundle H5.(i),
        No. (ii) or 2, I do not know, (ii) I think -- no, it is 2,
        right.  Page on the bottom, 562, this is the leaflet and
        this leaflet is very sharp in criticising in the same line
        of Holocaust denial calling one of the most hideous
        sentences of Mr Irving.  So the document itself shows me

.          P-95

        this, that this is a very Holocaust denialist group that
        invites Mr Irving to state things.  The signatures are of
        Steffan Rahber Forderverein Junges Deutschland and of
        Manfried Angeford, [German].  They met together to invite
        him in early '90, in March '90, it is in the Ruhe area in
        the munster, in the north rural area, and then there is --
        the next does not deal with this group.  It is an
        invitation by Valendi in 56, on the bottom of the line
        564.  I can go on and describe the content of the leaflet,
        it is very clear, but if you want I can allude to this at
        length, your Lordship.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No I think that probably will be sufficient.
   MR IRVING:  Will you go to please to paragraph 5.3.35 of your
        report at page 72?
   A.   5.3?
   Q.   35.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Now on reading my diary of April 20th -- what day is April
        20th in the German calendar, political calendar?
   A.   Excuse me?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It was a Friday.
   A.   No, no, he is referring to the birthday of Adolf Hitler.
   MR IRVING:  It was Friday and Hitler's birthday in that order.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think you would do well to have with you,
        Professor Funke, RWE 2, tab 9, page 44.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, what page?

.          P-96

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  RWE 2, tab 9, page 44.
   A.   On the right side, the page number.  Yes, OK, I have it.
   MR IRVING:  This is a dinner organized, firstly, this is a page
        from my private diary dated April 20th 1990?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And there is a reference in the paragraph beginning with
        the word "Dosed" to a dinner organized by Mr Althans in
        the hotel?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Drielogen Hotel was a reputable Hotel in Munich, is it not?
   A.   Excuse me?
   Q.   It is a very reputable hotel in the city centre of Munich,
        is it not?
   A.   It seems to, yes.
   Q.   And the people who were present, they are listed at the bottom?
   A.   Right.
   Q.   I found a list from which I have written down the names?
   A.   Right.
   Q.   The list says that those present are Staglich, Althans and
        a number of others.  Do you recognize any English people
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Mr Hancock?
   A.   Right.

.          P-97

   Q.   And at this dinner party Althans offered a toast to Adolf
        Hitler, is that right?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "All rose and toasted", right?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   From the diary entry, is it evident that I joined in or
        I did not join in this very tasteless toast?
   A.   I quote, "It ended with a drinkspruch spoken by him to a
        certain statesman whose 101st birthday" ----
   Q.   Can you answer the question?
   A.   --- "falls today.  All rose, toasted.  I had no glass as
        I do not drink".
   MR IRVING:  Yes.  So is it evident from that that I did not
        join in the toast?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, but there is nothing in the diary about - ---
   MR IRVING:  Mr Rampton, will you allow the witness to answer, please.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, no, no.  The witness ----
   MR IRVING:  I would grateful if you did not interrupt until he
        has finished his reply.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If it is an objection which is not a valid
        one, then I will obviously reject it.
   MR RAMPTON:  Of course, as has not happened yet in this case,
        but has happened to me often enough in the past, Mr Irving
        should not lard his questions with interpretations like
        "this very tasteless event".  There is nothing in the

.          P-98

        diary about that.

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