The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts//day028.05

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day028.05
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

.          P-39

   Q.   Then on November 18th 1989, I note he makes a very good
        impression, be is businesslike and ambitious, keen and
        organized --
   A.   Right.
   Q.   -- he has learned a lot already.  He appears to be coming
        up to speed.
   A.   I mean he even spoke instead of you, taking your notice in
        a given moment.  So it was quite close, although his
        manner, as you would put it, are lacking some of the
        Prussian, you know, style of organizations.
   Q.   February 5th 1990, I am sorry, February 3rd 1990, I
        express annoyance that Althans has made no attempt to
        contact me in two and a half months, and I add that was
        very unprofessional?
   A.   No, it went like it.  You see it.
   Q.   Well, I think this is important, because his Lordship is
        interested in the closeness of the contact.  If I note on
        February 3rd 1990, I expressed annoyance that Althans and
        made no attempt to contact me in two and a half months,
        that is very unprofessional.  He is supposed to be setting
        up things in Dresden and so on?
   A.   But, again, he made this furious event in Dresden at the
        13th February '90, and.
   Q.   --- did he --
   A.   You describe it.  So I would just, if I may, I would just
        say it is a back and forth.  It is in waves, right, but

.          P-40

        very intense at that time.
   Q.   -- why do you say --
   A.   Because of the Zundel connections he had and the
        Philipp -- and all the bunch of people you referred at
        that time.
   Q.   -- why do you describe the event in Dresden as being
        curious --
   A.   I did not say "curious", furious.  It was a furious
        success for you in your own perception.
   Q.   Furious?
   A.   Great, big, big success.
   Q.   -- on the diary of January 28th 1990 shows he organized it
        with the "cultur director", the cultur manager of the city
        of Dresden, did he not?
   A.   Right.
   Q.   Which is what I would expect a young man do for me, to act
        as my kind of manager and go out and organize these
        meetings, and he was organizing meetings with the
        municipal authority of Dresden.  But he is not dealing
        with skinhead organizations, or extreme right-wing groups,
        he is dealing with the proper authorities?
   A.   He did it both.
   Q.   But eventually we fell out, did we not, for a whole number
        of reasons?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Reasons for honesty and so on, I do not want to go into

.          P-41

        the details?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, but when?
   MR IRVING:  I would have to look at the diaries and see.  Let
        me read on.
   MR RAMPTON:  According to the diary entries we have here,
        certainly not until towards the end of 1994.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, that is my impression.
   MR IRVING:  1991, in March 23rd 1991, do you have that entry?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   This again shows that Althans lied to us.  He dos not care
        if we get arrested.  This was the famous Leuchter
        congress.  He had made arrangements. He lied us to us
        about what we were permitted to do under the law.  What
        arrangements he made with the police.  He was negotiating
        the whole time with the police, was he not, in Germany?
        The whole time?  He was doing things in a legal way?
   A.   But, again, see the context.
   Q.   I beg your pardon?
   A.   See the context.  I mean this was quite an event of
        hardcore revisionists, including some of the worst we have
        in Europe, Peter Varela.
   Q.   Mr ----
   A.   Mr Ahmed Remer.
   Q.   --- Althans had rented the Deutsches Museum.  Is that a
        very prestigious building in Munich?
   A.   Yes, and the problems became not because he has rented as

.          P-42

        a person for scientific Congress, but because of the scope
        and of the content of this so-called Leuchter, Fred
        Leuchter Congress.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   So the authorities said this cannot be, it is not in line
        with the law that forbids Holocaust denier to state, to
        stage as was done.
   Q.   How did the authorities know what was going to be said?
   A.   Oh.
   Q.   Did they decide in advance to ban meetings because they
        are frightened that people may come out with politically
        incorrect views or what?
   A.   I think the Munich authorities at that time knew a lot
        because of the experience of the year before.
   Q.   But you agree that Althans was trying to do things in a
        responsible way?  He had rented one of the most
        prestigious lecture theatres in Munich.  He organised
        speakers to come along.  The lecture theatre then violated
        the contract, is that correct, forcing the meeting to be
        held outside in the open air on the steps with the
        permission of the police, is that a correct summary?
   A.   I do not know.  I do not see -- no, I would disagree with that.
   Q.   Which part do you disagree with?  I cannot allow you to
        disagree without asking you why.
   A.   The whole perception of this scenery you described in your

.          P-43

        sentences, I cannot go with it.  I know that, according to
        your diary, he, Althans, was not careful enough to
        circumvent this kind of interaction with the police and
        then this ban to speak there and the decision of the
        Museum to speak there because they knew what will come.
        So, if I may say, if I would have, if I would have done it
        I would have been in the same problems, technical
        problems, Althans went into because of the content of it.
        Believe me, it is not, it is a technical problem that he
        cannot do it.  It is not, the real problem is that the
        whole Leuchter Congress was so disgusting and so against
        the law we had and we have that it could not work by any means.
   Q.   These are the laws for suppression of free speech in
        Germany, is that correct?  It is not against any kind of
        regular laws as accepted, for example, in the United
        States or in England?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, I think when you asked almost
        exactly the same question about 45 minutes ago, I said
        I do not think that helps, so it is not going to help now.
   MR IRVING:  Let me try to explain what I am trying to get at.
        If Mr Althans tries to do things the proper way, he rents
        the most prestigious lecture theatre, he organizes
        speakers like myself to come and speak on Churchill and
        Pearl Harbour, that was my topic, was it not?  Was that my
        topic that day?

.          P-44

   A.   So far you said it and according to the video.
   Q.   And does the correspondence not also show that that is my
        topic that day, my prearranged topic?
   A.   The topic of the Congress was the hardcore Holocaust
        denials meeting in Munich and to changing, as Althans put
        it, very politically in his views, in his views, "We will
        stop with kind of defence revisionism.  Now it is time to
        umdenken, to think anew" ----
   THE INTERPRETER:  To rethink?
   A.   --- "to rethink for the revolution", so this is something.
   MR IRVING:  But now?
   A.   Again I have just to remind you and with, if I may, your
        Lordship, just two sentences about the again and again
        posed question.  It is not just a freedom of expression,
        but you have the constitution.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Professor Funke, I totally understand what
        Mr Irving is suggesting and what your response is on that,
        so I think we must move on because this is getting --- -
   MR IRVING:  The position I am trying to get the witness to
        understand, and your Lordship has not yet received this
        and it will now come.  In view of the fact that the
        contract was violated, we were, therefore, the organizers
        were forced in conformity with the police to move the
        meeting to the outside which is a more extreme position,
        is it not?  They are no longer meeting in the comfort of a
        lecture theatre but they are out on the street?

.          P-45

   A.   Yes, of course.
   Q.   Under police protection.  So sometimes the extremism is
        forced upon them, if I can put it like that?
   A.   If you go out, you are extreme?
   Q.   Well, standing on the back of a truck holding a microphone
        in your hand looks more extreme than standing in a podium
        in a lecture theatre, is that right?
   A.   Again I would refer to the content.  It is not the
        appearance as such, the content, the content of the
        speeches, the content of the reasons to invite a
        demonstration like in Halle.  The content matters.
   Q.   I am moving on.  March 25th 1991.  "Then to a new press
        conference by Althans (who was missing)"?
   A.   Wait.  Where are we at?
   Q.   March 25th 1991, the diary?
   A.   Ah, OK.
   Q.   This is substantially before 1994, is it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "New press conference organised by Althans (who was
        missing).  Further shambles".  Then two days later, no,
        yes, one day later, March 26th:  "Althans told the press
        I was at the April 21st 1990 march (untrue)".  Have you
        noticed that and why did you not refer to that?
   A.   I have to go to the letter itself, right?
   Q.   No, it is the diary.  March 26th 1991.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I do not think we need to look at the

.          P-46

   A.   Where do I get...
   MR IRVING:  The diary, March 26th 1991.  Do you have extracts
        from the diary there, my diary?
   A.   No.
   Q.   You do not?
   A.   But maybe you just quote it.
   Q.   Just the first line, that is March 26th 1991.
   A.   "The text from BFP, want me to speak May 10th, DVU,
        Althans told press I was at 21st April march (untrue)".
   Q.   That is this demonstration, the illegal demonstration?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I put in my diary that Althans is telling the press that
        I was on it and this is untrue.
   A.   You say?  Yes, you say.
   Q.   Why would I lie to my own diary?
   A.   April 14th 1992, which is two years before 1994, "I am
        getting fed up with Althans.  It is impossible to make
        dates".  April 29th 1992, "Faxes from Althans".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am getting really puzzled by this,
        Mr Irving.  You have just referred to an entry ----
   MR IRVING:  Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  --- where you said it was untrue that you had
        been at a meeting on 21st April.
   A.   On the march after.
   MR IRVING:  On the march?

.          P-47

   A.   Afterwards, you know.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  On the march, I see.
   MR IRVING:   On this march afterwards, yes, the famous march to
        the Vertherren Halle?
   A.   One of the things.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I follow.  I am sorry.  I did not
        realise it was the march, not the meeting.
   MR IRVING:  Precisely, my Lord.  In my private diary I make
        quite plain that this is untrue and these diaries, of
        course, have been available to the Defence and yet they
        are still persisting in their contention that I was on it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  If I may say so, Mr Irving, I have got
        the diary entries.  Of course, if there is some missing
        diary entry that you want to rely on, put it to Professor
        Funke, but I do not really find it very helpful just going
        through odd entries.  Could you not put your case in
        relation to Althans more broadly?  I mean, it may be you
        have put it effectively already.
   MR IRVING:  I did put it broadly, my Lord.  Althans is one of
        the major figures, in my view.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I know.
   MR IRVING:  And I have three more one line episodes to put to
        this witness which again emphasise the fact that relations
        had broken down very early on.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right.  Remember it is the wood that I need
        to look at rather than the trees.  I mean, that is the

.          P-48

        point really.  I can see the correspondence goes on
        between you until 1993 into 1994.  So odd entries are not
        necessarily going to help enormously -- '95.
   MR IRVING:  If your Lordship has seen the odd entries, my Lord,
        and one example of the entries you have noticed is the one
        about the demonstration.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is right to point out (and everybody should be
        aware of it) that these, I do not know quite what, the
        abstracts at the front of each section in the RWE files
        are not, I think I have said it before, exhaustive.  That
        can cut both ways.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I appreciate they are a selection, yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  They are a selection.  There is a huge amount of
        material on the cutting room floors, as Miss Rogers puts it.
   MR IRVING:  And they are not agreed bundles either, my Lord, in
        this respect.

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