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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts//day028.04

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day028.04
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

   Q.   You rightly say that I am close friends or was close
        friends with that family.  Worch is a trained lawyer, is
        he not?

.          P-29

   A.   I do not know that he is a trained lawyer, but he was a
        kind of assistant to a lawyer, and in that function he
        acted also in his political.
   Q.   Had he not studied law?
   A.   So far I know he was in the lawyer -- as a lawyer's firm
        as an assistant.  He did not study law so far as I know.
   Q.   At the time --
   A.   To my best knowledge.
   Q.   -- at all material times had he a criminal record?
   A.   Excuse me?
   Q.   At all the material times that I was dealing with him had
        he a criminal record, to your knowledge?
   A.   Yes, there was -- he was sentenced, yes.
   Q.   What, under German laws for suppression of free speech or
        under regular criminal...
   A.   I mean under regular German law that includes some limits
        to freedom of expression.  You know that.
   Q.   Well --
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The point was, it was put in a slightly
        tendentious way, but were these conviction for speaking
        about the Nazi era?
   A.   -- yes, I have to look up.  It was in the ----
   Q.   Well, did he have any convictions which were for petty
        theft or burglary?
   A.   Because of his activities, yes, definitely.
   MR IRVING:  He is another politically incorrect friend of mine?

.          P-30

   A.   You say so.
   Q.   No, that is the question, as viewed from the left, he is
        politically incorrect?
   A.   I only refer to letters, that includes the German law and
        you may call this "political correctness" what the German
        laws are doing, fine with you.
   Q.   I do not want to have too long answers to this, but under
        German --
   A.   Very short --
   Q.   -- under the German constitution freedom of speech is
        protected, is it not?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think I know what the position is.
   MR IRVING:  But except for one exception.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think we need any questions and
        answers about it.
   A.   -- no, there are more than one exception.
   MR IRVING:   Paragraph 4.2.14, page 45.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You mentioned here on line 5 a lunatic, in my view, called
        Gary Lauck?
   A.   What line?
   Q.   Line five, you mention a American gentleman of
        questionable mental stability, in my view, called Gary Lauck?
   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is not on the list.

.          P-31

   MR IRVING:  Is he not on the list? Am I not going to be
        questioned about Lauck?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:   Well, he is not on list and I am therefore
        assuming he is not one of those who is relied on by the
        Defendants as a right-wing extremist associate.
   MR IRVING:  Paragraph 4.4.1, this is not one of the people that
        is a reference to the Leuchter report, Anthony Zundel.  It
        is accepted, of course, that I know Zundel and I have had
        contact with Zundel, right?  You state in paragraph 4.4.1
        in line 4 that "he was found guilty of peddling
        anti-Semitic propaganda"; was that the actual charge?
   A.   I have to look.  Can you translate this sentence to be
        very precise.
   Q.   Line 4?
   A.   To my best knowledge, but maybe there is more to it.
   Q.   Yes, he was not actually convicted of peddling
        anti-Semitic propaganda, the charge was spreading false
   A.   Yes, but this kind of false information, I would call it,
        that is in the realm of anti-Semitism, so it is my
        judgment, or my assessment to that.
   Q.   But you accept that that is not actually what he was
        charged with or convicted --
   A.   No problem with it.
   Q.   -- you also accept the conviction was subsequently
        overturned by Canada's Supreme Court?

.          P-32

   A.   So far as I know.
   Q.   And that he has no convictions, he is free of any
   A.   I do not know if he is now free of any conviction.
   Q.   Let me put that the other way round, are you aware of any
        conviction against him which has been upheld?
   A.   I do not know, I have to say I do not know.
   Q.   If no conviction against Ernst Zundel has been upheld he
        is less of a convict than I am?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think the point is whether these
        people have convictions, Mr Irving, it is what they say
        and do, not whether they are found to be guilty of some
        local law.
   MR IRVING:   It is a question of degree, my Lord.  People like
        Anthony Eden or Lord Halifax, as we know, made
        anti-Semitic remakes in private and other people go around
        smearing swastikas on synagogue. One end of the scale is a
        criminal conviction, other end of the scale is people's
        rather tasteless private rights to freedom of speech.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The point I am trying to make is what they do
        and say, not whether they are convicted or whether they are not.
   MR IRVING:  The fact they are convicted or not is a useful
        indicator for us as to the severity of the anti- Semitism
        which has been a component of their actions, in my view.

.          P-33

   MR IRVING:  Or a possible one.
   MR RAMPTON:  So then are Mr Irving's convictions going to stand
        here in this court as evidence of his guilt of
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I understand the intervention, but the answer
        is "no".
   MR RAMPTON:  Quite.
   MR IRVING:  Not a very helpful interruption.  448, I am sorry
        still stay on paragraph 4.4.1.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You refer there to the Leuchter report?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Towards the end of it you say you the report was not
        accepted by the court.  Are you aware that under Canadian
        rules of evidence engineering reports like that are
        accepted only if both parties agree in advance, so it had
        nothing to do with the quality of the report?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think this witness can possibly
        answer that.
   MR IRVING:  No, my Lord.  He has stated broadly it was not
        accepted --
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, it was not ever put in evidence in the
        Canadian proceedings.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I will make submissions when the time comes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  All right, but not through this witness,

.          P-34

        I think.
   MR IRVING:  4.4.8, that was just little bit of advertising that
        I will be making submissions when the time comes on that, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
   MR IRVING:  Paragraph 4.4.8, you are refer to a body called
        GdNF, not for the first time.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   What is the GdNF?  I had lost track of it by this time --
   A.   The Kuhnen connection, we spoke at length yesterday about
   Q.   -- well, then I can ask this simple question as it has
        involved Mr Kuhnen, is there any evidence in any of my
        diaries or private correspondence to which you had
        complete access of my knowledge of a body called GdNF?
   A.   Yes, you have been blank interaction with Christian
        Worch.  He is one of main activists.
   Q.   That is not my question, my question was is there any
        reference whatsoever to GdNF, which frankly I have seen
        for first --
   A.   It is my shortening, GdNF. It is the shortening of the
        OPC.  In Germany you may call different.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You have not realized it is the
   MR IRVING:  The way he put it in his acronym I assumed it was
        something like NATO, which is not a figment of

.          P-35

        imagination, this is a figment of the witness's
        imagination and need to be recognised as such, in the
        transcript in my view.
   A.   -- it is the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft.  We talked about that
        and we know what the body of it --
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, we know about that.
   MR IRVING:  Paragraph 5.1.4, back to our friend Mr Althans.
   A.   -- 5.1.4, yes.
   Q.   You rightly say that in my diary I refer to him as being a
        bit of a Nazi, that is at first blush, having just first
        met him, right?
   A.   Yes.  So at least one of the first meetings right, a bit
        of Nazi but helpful.
   Q.   A bit of Nazi but helpful.  I do not want to ride too much
        on that paragraph.  Would you imply that if you read that
        I regard being a bit of a Nazi as being a negative factor
        rather than a positive factor?
   A.   Here you write as if it is a bit of a negative factor.
   Q.   In my private diary?
   A.   But on the same token, in the same sentence you say: He is
        though helpful.
   Q.   Yes.  You are weighing one then against other the other
        rather like Schroder, Hitler's private secretary, she was
        probably a bit of a Nazi , but she was very helpful,
        too ----
   A.   You say a bit later again something like that, "in

.          P-36

        November '89 he was still a bit of a Nazi.  He is a very
        useful young man, 23 but looks older and tougher".
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   Or you refer to him in November driving to Strasbourg with
        Althans and his skinhead friend to attend Christopher's
        meeting in Hagenau.
   Q.   If I say I am driving to Strasbourg with somebody's
        skinhead friend does that imply that I am raising my
        eyebrows slightly or that I am jolly happy that this guy
        is a skinhead?
   A.   You met them.  You shared their car.  You went to Hagenau,
        to very hardcore revisionist, anti-Jewish meeting in
        Hagenau with this Zundel Juden pack statements.  You were
        then -- you got a dinner.  You were invited by this "bit
        of a Nazi but helpful Althans" to a dinner before the
        Wahrheit macht frei Congress with Philip Deckert --
   Q.   Can we take this in sequence, please.
   A.   -- of course, again --
   Q.   This was the skinhead, so he was there, he is still
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Can you say from your knowledge of my private diaries that
        my original impression of Althans, this man who has been
        to Israel, my impression was very favourable --
   A.   You did not say that he has connections at that time in
        your diary. I read it yesterday night.  You said it at the

.          P-37

        end, in '97 or so, so this is why it came to surprise to
        me. I never have known about that, because he was from 14
        years old and on with Remer, you know, this very -- even
        you want -- did not want to be aligned with him, person.
        So it is a total surprise.  I know this organization very
        good, and to be very personal I like this organization.
   Q.   -- the actual zunnerzeit?
   A.   Yes, right.
   Q.   Have you not seen the correspondence back in early 1990 or
        late 1989 where I received a letter from somebody who told
        me about Althans's visit to Israel?
   A.   The visit seems to my recollection, but not to
        zunnerseiten, because that I would have --
   Q.   Registered?
   A.   Registered, because I know this organization.  It is a
        Berlin based organization and that is why I know it.
   Q.   -- just the general overview of my diaries over the three
        years of this unfortunate association with Mr Althans, my
        initial impression of him were favourable because he was
        young and full of initiative?
   A.   Right.
   Q.   But I rapidly became disillusioned with him; is that
   A.   Rapidly -- but you know in early 1990s, in 1991 it
        starts -- and even in '90 you were a bit disgusted by his
        hotheadedness, as you would put it.

.          P-38

   Q.   There were various reasons, but you agree finally my
        impressions of him were highly unfavourable and I warned
        everyone against him?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  At what time are you suggesting that
        happened, Mr Irving?
   MR IRVING:  Over a period of three years, two years probably
        because by 1993 I was out.  I had had no dealings with him
        for long time by then.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So your disillusionment started when?
   MR IRVING:  I am just about to put to this witness a number of
        diary entries on Althans which may help to flesh that out,
        very brief entries and I have to put them to you in the
        form of putting them to you and I will show them to if you
        wish and you may well have them in front of you.  On
        September 30th 1989, two lines, "Althans phoned the hotel"
        that is in Berlin "he said he would phone again" --
   A.   '89 you say?
   Q.   -- yes.  I stayed in for this, but he did not call back
        poor manners, poor manners?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, that is not your best point, Mr Irving.
   MR IRVING:  November 6th.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Move on to the next one.
   MR IRVING:  November 6th 1989, I learn that he spent ten days
        in jail for a technical offence involving the president
        von Weisecker (?); do you have that entry?
   A.   Yes.

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