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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts//day028.03

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day028.03
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

.          P-19

   MR IRVING:  Precisely.  Your Lordship has made exactly the
        point I was hoping that the witness would make.
        Photograph 16, is that the Lowebrau Bierhall in Munich?
   A.   I do not know, maybe.
   Q.   Obviously dressed up for some kind of function, listening
        to me speak?
   A.   Where is it?  When is it?
   Q.   In Munich.
   A.   When is it?
   Q.   Probably about 1984, thereabouts, 1989.  That again is the
        kind of audience -- they do not look particularly extreme
        or violent?
   A.   In '94 you were in Germany?
   Q.   No, '84.  No. 17, there is a meeting to which you refer.
        Is it not a demonstration, photograph No. 17?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   German historians, liars and cowards?
   A.   Who is the left person?
   Q.   That is Mr Pedro Varela.  Do you recognise him?
   A.   OK.
   Q.   Yes.  Does he look like a violent person or extreme?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, again....
   MR IRVING:  The point is it is difficult to judge by
        appearances.  I mean, I might be violent or extreme.  The
        point I am trying to make, witness, and would you agree
        with, is, it is difficult to tell when you look at an

.          P-20

        audience who the people are?  We do not know who is in
        this court room, we might have John George Hague, the acid
        bath murderer.  He might be one of these members of the
        public or someone like that and we do not know, do we?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, the case against you is not that
        these people look like extremists, but that they have a
        track record of extremism and that you associated with
        them.  So I do not think we want to spend terribly long on
        their physical appearance.
   MR IRVING:  Yes.  But unless I am mistaken also the case
        against me is in part that these extremist organisations
        that I have been addressing, you would have expected all
        the trappings, "bovva boots", skinheads and flags --
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I follow that point.
   MR IRVING:  And the rest of it.  These, on the face of it,
        these meetings appear to be respectable, middle-class,
        rather boring lectures.

                  (To the Witness) Now I would like to return to
        your report, please, page 39.
   A.   Just a second.
   Q.   You refer to the NPD, can I ask you the simple question;
        is the NPD illegal or banned?
   A.   Just a second.  What page?
   Q.   Page 39 of your report.
   A.   So be it.
   Q.   Is the NPD -- it is a political party in Germany, is it

.          P-21

   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Is it illegal or banned?
   A.   It is not banned.
   Q.   So there is no reason why one should not address if one
        was invited to a function organized by NPD, or is there?
   A.   I stated yesterday it is formally not legal, but it is
        perceived by the social sciences, as well as by the
        official institutions as a hardcore, right-wing extremist.
   Q.   Yes, well, we know how much weight we have attach to that,
        I think.
   A.   No, we are different on that.
   Q.   Yes, but the left wing --
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, do not argue about it, we have the evidence.
   MR IRVING:  You mention Franz Schonhuber, I am not going to
        dwell upon him, but he was a popular Bavarian television host?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Which is how I first came to know him.  I was on his show,
        is that correct?
   A.   I did not --
   Q.   So that is how I first came to know him.  Lower down that
        page you refer to a man at 4.1.3, a man, Gottfried Kussel,
        do you have any evidence at all that I have any kind of
        contacts with Mr Kussel?

.          P-22

   A.   -- you were at the same demonstration, for example.
   Q.   Being in the same room, that kind of thing?
   A.   I alluded to that, that that is different and the Halle
        demonstration, he was at the top of this demonstration and
        that shows something for this kind of demonstration.  It
        is not like a, you know, anarchist way, they are this and
        they are the others, he was at the top of the
   Q.   You mean at the front --
   A.   He represented, at the head of it, yes, and he represented
        the new leadership of the Kuhnen connection where you
        spoke to.
   Q.   -- yes.
   A.   To whom you spoke.
   Q.   I do not want to interrupt you, but we certainly do not
        want to view that video again unless his Lordship orders,
        but you are not suggesting in any of those shots showing
        Mr Kussel I was also visible?
   A.   The shots we did not see shows the hotel hall in the
        longer version and I saw it several times, and there the
        people went out and in, and you were asked you if you
        would -- so far as I recall, but we have to see it then
        again, if you will also meet Kussel and you said something
        I cannot recall.  So it was -- you were aware somehow, and
        you drove to Halle I think three hours or more from
        Hamburg with Uschi or Ursula Worch, one of the leaders of

.          P-23

        this Kuhnen connection at that time, so you may have
        known, and if not it seems, for me at least, you are
        responsible not to whom you speak to.
   Q.   So to boil down what you are saying, what you are saying
        is I was in the same large city as Kussel and that he was
        at the head of the demonstration on shots of film we have
        seen but I am not in those shots and that you say there
        are other shots of film -- are you saying that I am
        together with him in those shots of film?
   A.   I do not know.  But you were together at the meeting,
        he -- if we go very carefully through the video again
        I think you will see him at the spot where you spoke.  So
        you cannot deny, you cannot deny that this is a
        Kussel/Kuhnen connection, demonstration to whom you
        spoke.  This is a clear cut case.  You know it.
   Q.   Now you are bringing in Michael Kuhnen.  We have already
        established that I have no contact whatsoever with Michael
        Kuhnen --
   A.   It does not matter, we refer -- we agreed even to call
        these groups "the Kuhnen crew" or "the Kuhnen connection",
        we can also say "Sinnungsgemeinschaft".  So I know what
        I am speaking about.  These groups at that very meeting at
        9th November '91 met.  These were clear cut neo-Nazi
        groups organized by Christian Worch, by Uschi Worch and
        you were invited by Uschi Worch the other day in the
        evening, according to a diary, to meet this demonstration

.          P-24

        and to talk to them.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, this is getting a bit repetitive, if
        I may say so, I have the evidence about Kussel.  I think
        he can move on now.
   MR IRVING:  Yes.  Footnote 117 on that page, 39, we find
        Deckert, how many meetings do you think that the
        schoolteacher, Dr Deckert, organized for me as chairman?
   A.   -- I do not know, you know better.
   Q.   Two meetings; is that right?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   One in Stuttgart and one in Weinhart?
   A.   Could be, yes.
   Q.   Both reputable bodies?
   A.   Excuse me?
   Q.   Both reputable bodies, the one in Stuttgart was to a
        veterans association, the one in Weinheim was to some
        other little splinter group?
   A.   I do not know, you know better.  But I know what you spoke
        to and who Deckert is, and for the Lordship I just want to
        remind you that this is very famous and influential member
        of the NPD at that time, and got a bit later the
        leadership of this same NPD, and in which in that time the
        NPD radicalized with respect to hardcore revisionism, and
        with respect, and this is even for my assessment more
        important, radicalized in organizing these groupings we
        are talking -- we talk just a minute -- we talked just a

.          P-25

        minute about -- no, we talked about just a minute ago, for
        example, in Halle.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   These groupings came after they were banned
        in '92, '93, '94, '95, all the more to this NPD organized
        and led by this Deckert, so a you have good friend.
   Q.   You are talking '92, '93, '94, it is getting rather vague
        now, because from '93 onwards I was never in Germany?
   A.   Oh, no, I can be very precise.  I said bans were sent to
        these groups from '92 onwards.
   Q.   Can I make it very simple for you --
   A.   You were there, or you could go into the country, and you
        did up to the end of '93.
   Q.   -- 9th November 1993.  Let me make simple for you,
        Dr Funke, and ask outright, do you know of any occasion
        when I addressed a meeting to an organization which was at
        that time illegal or banned in Germany?
   A.   So far I know you do not address a meeting that was
        banned -- of a group that was banned at that time.
   Q.   Thank you.
   A.   That was not my point at all.
   Q.   You say you have seen the correspondence between myself
        and Gunther Deckert who is one of names on the list?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Your footnote on page 39.
   A.   Yes, OK.

.          P-26

   Q.   Was there anything extremist about that correspondence?
   A.   We go into the correspondence.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, if we must, yes, but --
   MR IRVING:  Can I ask you if there was any anti-Semitism
        expressed in that correspondence?
   A.   I have to go into -- you know, piece by piece and then we
        can decide.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  RWE 2, tab 8.
   A.   2, tab 8, excuse me, I am not familiar with this (Pause).
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry, did I tell you the wrong one, it
        is my fault, maybe it is 9, RWE tab 9.
   MR IRVING:  I am not sure this is the right way to do this, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, this is not really your fault.  I think
        this is not going to be a productive exercise.  If you do
        not object, Mr Irving, do you mind me asking Mr Rampton,
        he may not be able to help off the top of his head, but is
        there anything you particularly rely on in the Deckert
        correspondence as being extremist?  I have looked through
        the index and there does not appear to be anything.
   MR RAMPTON:  Not as being explicitly extremist, no.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Otherwise, we will spend half an hour
        trawling through for no purpose.
   MR RAMPTON:  I quite agree.  If I should find something --
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You can re-examine.
   MR RAMPTON:  Then I shall include it in some submissions later.

.          P-27

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Or re-examination.
   MR IRVING:  Let me ask, Dr Funke --
   A.   Just a second, can I just go through 30 seconds more?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, if you find some extremist references.
   MR IRVING:  That will be very helpful.
   MR RAMPTON:  I would not expect to find it in the
        correspondence anyway.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Nor would I , which is why I wonder what the
        purpose of this is.
   A.   -- oh, yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  I would, would I?
   A.   Yes, you would, I have one, but I want to use my 20 seconds.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You might extend that briefly.
   A.   I am not -- I refer to the following, it is II, it is at
        the beginning of No. One, tape 8, and the second page,
        12th May '91, right.  Do you have it?  II.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   There in the middle it is stated, but I have to check what
        are the references, the audio cassette and what have you,
        "in three/four years, at the latest, these legends will
        no longer hold water the legend will be over and then the
        tables will be turned and the whole" and so forth drowned
        out in past. This statement, if this is included in what
        you referring to here, we have to go to the sentence
        before and after, so far I see it can be referring to the

.          P-28

        Holocaust thing.  If so, then of course it fits in my
        perception of what is extremist.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
   MR IRVING:  He organized a meeting for me in Weinheim on
        September 3rd 1990, did he not, nearly ten years ago now;
        is that right?
   A.   Yes, it is the time that is of interest.
   Q.   Yes, he has been in prison for seven years for being
        chairman of that meeting, has he not?
   A.   I do not think so, seven years, but --
   Q.   He is still in prison now?
   A.   -- but several times, for a quite lot of time, right.
   MR IRVING:  Paragraph -- do you approve of the imprisonment of
        people for chairing meetings where historians speak?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I do not think that is helpful.
   MR IRVING:  Paragraph 4.2.6 on page 42, you mention --
   A.   OK, just a second I have to, it is not so wide this
        space.  42, you say?
   Q.   -- page 42, paragraph 44.2.6.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You mention Worch, Christian Worch and his wife Uschi?
   A.   Yes.

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