The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

   MR IRVING:  Another cut there.
   A.   You see "Sieg Heil" shouting.  Christian Worch is
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is there much more of this?
   MR RAMPTON:  That is about it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It was not a criticism; it is just that I see
        the time.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, I know.  We can look at it again at the end of
        the case, if necessary.  One sees what one sees and hears
        what one hears.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  Five past two.

                        (Luncheon Adjournment).

   (2.05 p.m.)

   MR RAMPTON:  My examination in chief of Professor Funke has ended.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I thought it probably was, Mr Irving.
                  < Cross-Examined by Mr Irving.
   MR IRVING:  Professor Funke, good afternoon.  Before we start
        looking at your report, I think it makes sense for me to
        take up some points of what has been said in the
        examination-in-chief while it is still fresh in our

.          P-85

        memory, and particularly some of the things that we have
        seen on the videos.  The very last video we saw was the
        events in Halle on November 9th 1991.  Is that is correct?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Have you studied the events of that day in any particular
        detail, looked at the press clippings or other footage
        than we have seen on television?
   A.   I tried the best I can.
   Q.   Yes.  Am I right in saying that the world's television
        news commentators were there, all the big names, Martin
        Bell, the equivalent of the German television stations were there?
   A.   There was a lot of coverage about this demonstration, this event.
   Q.   Are you familiar with the fact that German television
        newsreel teams, in order to spice the footage of what they
        are filming, sometimes bribe people in the audience to do
        illegal acts, committing illegal acts?
   A.   I do not know about it.
   Q.   Have you heard of episodes where, for example, a Frankfurt
        television producer was prosecuted for arranging for
        skinheads to give Hitler salutes?
   A.   If you give me evidence, it would be fine to see it and to
        react on this.
   Q.   That is a perfectly proper answer.
   A.   If this is the case, of course it has to be criticised.

.          P-86

   Q.   Yes.  Did you see on the footage that we just saw, when
        these irresponsible shouts from the audience of Siegheil,
        -- which is a Hitler salute, is it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Did you see me put up my hand to tell them to stop?
   A.   Yes.  At least, you did a kind of gesture, not instigating
        it but ----
   Q.   To indicate that it was not welcome?
   A.   In a way, yes.  I would say so.  It is a guess, though, it
        is an interpretation, but definitely you did not ----
   Q.   I did not encourage it?
   A.   -- go with these kind of shoutings at that given moment.
   Q.   Did you hear from anyone, or did you see any other film
        footage which suggested that in the first part that was
        missing I had said to the audience, you are a
        predominantly youthful audience?
   A.   Please repeat the question, if I may ask.
   Q.   In the first passage that was omitted from that, did you
        see any other footage, or hear any tapes, or read any
        suggestions that in that part that was cut out, to which
        I drew his Lordship's attention, I said to the audience
        "You are young people" effectively?
   A.   What I recall very vividly is that you referred to the
        future of Germany and alluding to these youngsters there, yes.
   Q.   That I said "You are Germany's future"?

.          P-87

   A.   Something like this.
   Q.   And that "No-one can accuse you of war crimes"?
   A.   Something like this, but now we have to get your website
        on the desk so I can interpret it with you together.
   Q.   Did you hear on the video that we saw me saying in German,
        as they gave the skinheads the Siegheil salute, did you
        hear me saying, "You should not be coming with the slogans
        of Germany's past"?
   A.   Something like this sense.  The complete wording I am not
        aware of.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Should not always be thinking about the past?
   MR IRVING:  Well ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Same thing.
   MR IRVING:  I was asking for the actual words that I used,
        which were, "You should not be using the slogans of the
        past when I have just described you as being Germany's
        future".  Another couple of general questions.  Did you
        see the pictures of me standing in my rain coat watching
        this crowd of people coming down the street?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Did you get the impression from my demeanour that I was
        overjoyed and very happy at what was going on?  Or did
        I look rather -- would you describe me -- well, how would
        you describe me?  I cannot lead.
   A.   I cannot answer this question precisely, but maybe extend

.          P-88

        to two or three further sentences that include my
        picture.  That is that you came into the hall, as the
        video showed, the hotel hall, saw the people there, a lot
        of them who were then in the demonstration.  You came
        supposedly with Uschi Worch.  So you knew, Mr Irving,
        about the character of this whole event, as I said it just
        before the break.  The Christian Worch and Uschi Worch
        groupings came into this demonstration.  I would think
        that, because of this shouting throughout the
        demonstration -- your Lordship, you saw just a bit of
        it -- there was steadily this kind of "aus aus lande aus"
        shouting, again and again "Siegheil", not only at that point.
   THE INTERPRETER:  Foreigners out.
   A.   "Out out foreigners out", and this shouting alike, so the
        character of the demonstration would have been very clear for you.
   MR IRVING:  Now my question again.  Did I look shocked when
        I was standing there in my rain coat?
   A.   I cannot say.  I really cannot say.
   Q.   Was I waving my arms enthusiastically, or was I standing there?
   A.   You did not shout "Siegheil", and you did not make these
        gestures of the Nazi period.  I did not see that.  This is
        all what I can say.
   Q.   This takes me to another question, which may well interest

.          P-89

        his Lordship.  Was there any manifestation of Holocaust
        denial on that day in Halle?  Do you understand the question?
   A.   To me?  Excuse me.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, it was to you.
   A.   Yes.  I understood.
   MR IRVING:  Or was it just --
   A.   There was a rousing speech afterwards, of too much
        Dienel.  That was very, very aggressive and I have to
        recall -- maybe you will see the typewritten version or
        you will see the video.  It was very aggressive against
        foreigners, but Holocaust denial things I did not hear.
   MR IRVING:  Yes.  This leads to another question.  Were there
        any expressions of anti-Semitism during the functions or
        on the video tapes that you have seen of that particular
        function, not just xenophobia, not just "aus lande aus.
   A.   I got your point.
   Q.   Explicit anti-Semitism?  Are these useful questions, my Lord?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Absolutely.
   MR IRVING:  Yes.
   A.   No, they were concentrated on this hatred against foreigners.
   Q.   Did you see any pictures in that film footage we saw of me
        with this gentleman, Thomas Dienel, together?
   A.   On the stage.

.          P-90

   Q.   Together?
   A.   You know he was around.  We have to look on the video.
        You know on the stage there were Christian Worch and you
        and ----
   Q.   It was the back of a lorry, in fact.
   A.   Skinhead guys, so far as I know, of the region.  Then you
        came before this both, you came and then you left.  This
        is what I saw.  You are right.
   Q.   In fact, have you read my diary and do you get the
        impression from my diary in doing so that I arrived,
        I spoke and I left immediately and headed back to West
        Germany within ten minutes?
   A.   I think you would not make it in ten minutes to West
   Q.   Well, I stayed around for ten minutes to make my speech
        and left immediately.  Was that the impression you got?
        Or did you get the impression that I stayed there the
        whole day, applauding every speaker?
   A.   The diary shows no further inclination with the procedures
   Q.   The diary refers to my making a rabble rousing speech,
        does it not, which Mr Rampton read out this morning?
   A.   So far as I recall, yes.
   Q.   Have you seen any references in my diary to my making a
        rabble rousing speech to my third daughter, Paloma, when
        she misbehaved one day and I made a rabble rousing ---

.          P-91

   A.   You have to give me evidence.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That I think I would not pursue as a question
        because it will involve about ten minutes of explanation.
   MR IRVING:  Yes.  I think I have established the main points.
        Just let me ask you once again.  Do you specifically
        recall seeing any image of me on that film footage on the
        back of that truck next to or talking to Thomas Dienel?
   A.   I did not see it on the video, no.
   Q.   No.  The Leuchter Congress, which is the film that was
        shown just before that, March 23rd 1991, his Lordship
        invited you not to translate what I said in my remarks,
        but would it be right to say that I just told the
        audience, "I have to tell you that I cannot tell you
        anything, the police have ruled that we cannot talk about
   A.   This is right.
   Q.   Did I then continue to say that my topic was going to be a
        lecture on Winston Churchhill and the United States entry
        into World War II?  Was that going to be the topic?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It was not going to be Holocaust denial or it was not
        going to be an anti-Semitic talk, to your knowledge?
   A.   No.
   Q.   The Munich lecture of April 1990, this was the Wahrheit
        Macht Frei lecture that we saw, the one that cost me so
        much, those few words, Wahrheit Macht Frei is "the truth

.          P-92

        shall set you free".  Is that an appropriate translation of that?
   A.   I think so.
   Q.   Is that not in fact a quotation from the Bible, the
        scriptures, from John 8.32?
   A.   I do not know.  I am not so Biblefest, as we say in
   THE INTERPRETER:  Not as well versed in the Bible.
   MR IRVING:  It had nothing to do with whatever private
        obsessions Mr Rampton may have with that phrase?  It has
        nothing to do with anybody's -- in other words there are
        other possible explanations why that is a popular phrase
        in Germany?
   A.   The question of Richard Rampton was quite valid.  It came
        into my mind in the subconscious.
   Q.   The resonance?
   A.   The resonance and the reference to the Nazi period,
        because of the aggressive outlet of the whole event in
        April 90 as set out by Mr Althans in saying, this is the
        end of the defence revisionists and now we have to think reverse.
   THE INTERPRETER:  We have to change our thinking.
   A.   And then, according to the sense, for a new political
        revolution or the like.  I have to find the exact quote.
        So there is a surrounding atmosphere that can lead to
        these kinds of sensitivity that can allude to this Nazi

.          P-93

        period slogans.
   Q.   Still dwelling on the Munich events, have you seen any
        reference in my diary to my criticising Althans for the
        appearance at that function?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  For what at the function?
   MR IRVING:  The appearance, the way it was staged, the staging of it.
   A.   So far as I recall with respect to the 1st April '90
        Congress, you said two things, except the skinheads and
        the flags, or so in your diary.
   Q.   Yes.  I did not like the skinheads and I did not like the
        flags and I told Althans that.
   A.   Can I add something?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, do.  I was just looking up the diary entry.
   A.   Of course it is of interest to see you again meeting these
        skinheads in Halle and elsewhere.
   MR IRVING:  Confronting them, or having them imposed upon me?
        Would that be the right way to say it?
   A.   I cannot say yes to that.

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