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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts//day027.09

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.09
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Who is he?
   A.   Is this Staglich again?
   MR RAMPTON:  It is the same old faces.
   A.   This is one person there ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you go back a bit?
   A.   --- who will speak later, Peter Verala to the right, just
        to the right.  This is Pedro Verala.  He stood all the
        time in the back of the stage.  This is Paul Knutsen a
        Danish activist of the same scene, both revisionists and
        right wing extremist activities involved.  This is now
        Pedro Verala speaking and having a tape of the Haute Lyons
        D'Egrelle(?).  That was the Lyons D'Egrelle.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Was that Althans?
   MR RAMPTON:  Althans in the ----
   A.   This is Althans again, right.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I thought so.
   A.   This is now Ditlieb Felderer, a Swedish activist of the
   MR RAMPTON:  Is it a man or a woman -- oh, it is a man.
   A.   There is Christian Worch, organizer of the security aspect
        of this conference, with his troopers, if I may say so.

.          P-75

        This is again Raymund Bachman of Austria.  To the left you
        see Christian Worch.  They sing again the first verse of
        the National Anthem that is forbidden.  This is a
        reference to the berkhof(?) of Hitler, so far as I see
        it.  This is it.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, your Lordship will have noticed that apart
        from my actual appearance, there is no appearance of
        myself in that video, if you see what I am saying?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You will have an opportunity to say whether
        you were or were not there for the whole of it.
   MR IRVING:  While the images were fresh in your Lordship's
        memory, I wished to...
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, all right, well, that is fair enough.
   MR RAMPTON:  How long is this one?
   A.   That is a rally in Halle.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is this the last one, Halle?
   MR RAMPTON:  The last one.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Shall we try to deal with it?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  We will deal with it, if your Lordship will
        permit, by the same means.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  We have actually got a transcript of
   MR RAMPTON:  Have we?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Tab 11?
   A.   This is Gottfried Kussel.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is this Halle already?

.          P-76

   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Just pause a second.  I do not know whether it is -- at
        least I assume it is the same tab 11 in D2(iii)?
   MR RAMPTON:  Your Lordship is miles ahead of me, D2(iii).
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is it November 9th 1991, Professor Funke?
   A.   That is 9th November of '91.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, it is the same one.
   MR RAMPTON:  That is absolutely right, my Lord.
   MR IRVING:  Can we establish whether this is from Dispatches or
        the raw uncut footage, please?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think that is a proper enquiry.
   MR RAMPTON:  Of course it is.  I do not know the answer.  That
        is all.  It is taken from This Week, not Dispatches, and
        it is such footage as we have.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So we are getting the whole lot, in other words?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, but again I suggest that we do not need to --
        we identify Kussel.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, if I can just ask you to pause for a
        moment?  There are three video tapes.  There is the "This
        Week" programme as broadcast and there are two video tapes
        which fell into our hands by accident, containing the raw
        uncut footage of this programme.  The "This Week"
        programme is heavily edited and, as a matter of interest,
        I would just like to know what the court is going to be
        shown now, whether it is the raw, uncut footage.

.          P-77

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  "This Week", I think, is what is being shown
        and the whole of "This Week", as I understand it.
   MR IRVING:  I understood Miss Rogers to say it was such footage
        as they had.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is not edited.  You can see that from the
        timing ----
   MR IRVING:  So this is the raw, uncut footage?
   MR RAMPTON:  --- thing.  That is why it is rather long and, I
        am afraid, it is very "samey", but the sameness is rather
        striking so perhaps we should continue in fast forward for
        a bit.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Exactly the same basis as before.  Yes?
   A.   As I said, this is Gottfried Kussel marching at the top so
        representing that he is the successor of ----
   MR RAMPTON:  Excuse me.  When you get to Kussel being
        interviewed, could you stop it, please, because I want to
        hear ----
   A.   By the way, this is the main transparent -- banner, thank
        you, showing that, you know, Reiner Sonntag, Rudolf Hess
        and a third person.  These are the matters of the Reich.
        This matter of the Reich, you see it down.
   THE INTERPRETER:  Matters of ----
   A.   Matters of the Reich, Rudolf Hess in the middle, Reiner
        Sonntag to the left and Michael Kuhnen to the right.  I
        have to say that Reiner Sonntag was a neo-Nazi activist in
        Dresden of the same camp, of the neo-Nazi camp, and was

.          P-78

        killed by non-political reasons, as far as the record is
        there.  Michael Kuhnen died by disease in April '91.
   MR RAMPTON:  Right, thank you.
   A.   This is Deutsche TV.  You see now all the political little
        tiny important for them and for the scene groups, and here
        this is the political arm of the Kuhnen crew or the
        Gesinnungsgemeinschaft.  So a group that is described by
        all sources, including the official ones in Germany as
        neo-National Socialists.
   Q.   What significance are the colours black, white and red, if
   A.   This is again schwarz, weiss, rot, black, white ----
   THE INTERPRETER:  Black, white and red?
   A.   --- and red, reference to the Nationalistic cause to as
        long as they are not allowed to use swastikas, swastika
   Q.   Carry on.

                      (The video continued)

   A.   It is a bit quick.  I cannot identify the persons by this
        speed.  Here again you ----
   Q.   Continue with the ----
   A.   This is the Reichskriegsflagge again.  The police
        sheltering the demonstration.  Ah, maybe you go a bit
        back, if I may ask you?  OK, now with tone, with sound.
   Q.   Stop there, what?
   A.   This, OK.

.          P-79

   Q.   What are they shouting first of all?
   THE INTERPRETER:  "We'll get you all"?
   A.   Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  "Alle wir kriegen Euch"?
   THE INTERPRETER:  "We'll get you all".
   A.   "Wir kriegen Euch alle".  "We get you all".
   Q.   Who is "all", who is "you"?
   A.   This is a slogan that is used by this very aggressive
        demonstrations and attack attempts on asylum seekers home
        in the early 1990s, so I did book on the Rostock event
        where this kind of attack of assylum seeker home where
        this again was shouted.  So, it is a very aggressive, "We
        get you all".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, but it is xenophobia, it is not
        specifically anti-Semitic?
   A.   No, but it can turn because often they are both and they
        were asked to be both, anti-Semitic destroying cemeteries
        of Jews, and be against foreigners.  This is Deutsche
        Hessen, German Hesser, and there to the right you have one
        of the other main active neo-Nazis leaders thinks Heinz
        Reisz, R-E-I-S-Z.  He is one of the active persons in
        Hesser.  This is a run down region of ----
   Q.   Can you pause there a moment?  Professor, have you tried
        to estimate or do you know how many people were at this rally?
   A.   It was estimated by various sources around 5 to 600.

.          P-80

   Q.   The pictures we have seen so far are mostly, not entirely,
        are of what one might call skinheads wearing what the
        English call "bovver" boots.  To what extent were they
        characteristic of the audience?
   A.   They are very characteristic.  You have here a clear cut
        sign or picture, better to say, of several, you know,
        groupings coming together.  The basis of them are these
        often without hair, you know ----
   Q.   Skinheads?
   A.   --- short hair, dressed and boots of this kind where you
        can do this kind of marching things, using this
        Reichskriegsflagge as described, wearing special jackets.
        They are the core of the skinhead, the violent skinhead,
        scene.  This is the one level.  The other level is that
        all the little tiny groups of the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft,
        of the Kuhnen crew, after his death, the Kuhnen crew, of
        course, with Worch and others are there joining, and also
        those who are a bit of distance, you can see it a bit
        later, coming to join because there is a joint effort to
        go to the next step of this strategy.
                  The third dimension, the third level, so to
        speak, is that also the NPD, the normal right-wing
        extremists, if I may say so, not so violent, not so
        neoNazi orientated, come to a degree also and are invited
        by this already mentioned to Thomas Dienel, the chief of
        the NPD of Tourignia, Tourignia at that point, at that

.          P-81

        time, and the second chief or one of the second chiefs of
        the Federal level of the NPD.
                  So you have an attempt to join on the very
        radical level the whole scenery to make the next
        strategical step.  You have to recall, if I may say this
        as a last sentence, that in the period between '89 and
        this very day since the fall of the Wall, two years were
        gone, and in this they could establish this kind of
        movement of male youngsters to be as furious against
        foreigners as anti-Semitic and for Aryan race based state.
                  Last sentence again, the amount of violence, you
        know, were more intense in '91 than in '90, and again
        in '92.  So they are at a juncture of spreading their
        influence in the violent youngsters' scene, especially in
        East Germany.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do we see Mr Irving on the way in ----
   A.   We will see.
   Q.   --- as it were, to the meeting?  We will see him, will we?
   MR RAMPTON:  I do not know if we see him on the march.
   A.   No, no.
   Q.   We certainly see him on the scaffold in due course?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is what I was really wondering.  Yes,
        I see.
   A.   This is -- you can go on.  This is another Krubrich is the
        name, another activist.  Can you go a bit back, if I may

.          P-82

        ask you?  You see there the Leipzig(?) grouping come and
        join to, tried to join.

                      (The video continued)

   A.   With sound, please?
   Q.   Can you stop there, please?  What are they shouting?
   A.   I cannot hear it.
   THE INTERPRETER:  A moment ago they shouted "Aus lande aus" and
        the last bit was unintelligible, so "Foreigners out" they
        shouted before.
   MR IRVING:  Would you comment or can you see red flags there in
        the background?
   A.   Yes.  These are not flags of, if I may interpret it, if
        you allow?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
   A.   These are not red flags of leftists, as you may think.
        These are flags of the national bloc.  This is very much
        to the hardcore right-wing extremists of the neo-Nazi
        scene.  Again, a kind of revolutionary, representing a
        kind of national socialist revolutionary strategy of
        strasse faction way back to the early '30s, and they are
        of the rural area, this group.  "Rotfront verrecke" was
        shouted. "Rotfront verrecke".
   THE INTERPRETER:  "Red front, go and die".
   MR RAMPTON:  Sorry, I did not hear that, what?
   A.   This to the right in the middle is Thomas Dienel, the
        already mentioned Thomas Dienel.  In the middle you have

.          P-83

        Christian Worch.  So the both organizers, as I alluded to
        before, and to the left, this is so far as I know, an
        activist of the region of Halle.

                         (The video continued)

   A.   This is, excuse me, this flag is the flag of Christian
        Worch's group of Hamburg, the nationalist NL.
   Q.   Which flag is that at the back?
   A.   This black, white.
   Q.   Yes, thank you.

                       (The video continued)

   A.   This is Worch has spoken.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, can I pause a moment?  My Lord, I do not
        think you were looking, but there was a cut between the
        introductory passage where your Lordship starting marking
        and then the camera moved its position.  I think it would
        have taken him probably five, 10 or 15 seconds to move to
        a new position during which you missed, obviously, 15
        seconds of intervening text.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  How long did you speak for?
   MR IRVING:  I was a guest appearance of five minutes, I think,
        altogether.  I arrived.  I spoke for five minutes and
        I immediately left.
   MR RAMPTON:  The diary says for the appropriate date that he
        made a "rabble rousing 10 or 15 minutes".
   MR IRVING:  10 or 15 minutes, and if you could just run it back
        just a few seconds, then you will see where the actual

.          P-84

        break occurs.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You are right.  I was reading but I was
        following it.
   MR IRVING:  There.

                        (The video continued)

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