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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts//day027.05

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.05
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

   Q.   Can you tell me what sort of information they exchanged on
        the website?
   A.   I have to say only to a limit because it is so much to
        read, if I see the web sites of David Irving that
        I restrict myself, but to a degree he refers to the court
        things Deckert was in because of the event in Weinheim.
        Deckert got debated imprisonment by doing this event in
        early, in the early '90s, I think in '91.  So David Irving
        is repeatedly referring to this kind of aftermath of this event.
   MR IRVING:  It is actually an appeal for funds for the family
        of Deckert, is it not, while he is in prison?
   A.   Excuse me?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, I think we had better just leave
        it to you to cross-examine later.  It seems that Deckert
        is somebody you were in fairly regular contact with.
   MR IRVING:  No problem with that one at all.
   MR RAMPTON:  Well, then is this no problem about the contact?
        Can we know something about Herr Deckert himself and his
        views, please?
   A.   Deckert is one of those who is very near to the hardcore
        revisionists and he got the NPD Chair in '91 to '95, and
        he was one of the persons who radicalized in this period
        of radicalization of right-wing extremist movements in

.          P-37

        Germany because of the scenery, especially in East
        Germany, he radicalized the NPD.  This is, if I may say
        so, out of the perspective of a social scientist, a very
        interesting, you know, change at that period of time,
        because that means in the following years that the
        interaction between the neo-Nazis and the NPD grew.  And
        finally after all this neo-Nazi -- no, after a bunch of
        these neo-Nazi groups were banned by the German
        authorities in '92 and '93 and '94 and '95, the NPD was
        the so-called still formally legal but ultra right-wing
        extremist party who took over, and organized this little
        tiny neo-Nazi groups to a degree in their camp.
                  So we have the interesting thing, just to finish
        it with one sentence, that at the end of the century we
        had a kind of joining efforts of the Christian Worch camp
        on the one hand and the NPD camp on the other conflating
        in the demonstration of 29th January through the Bahnhof
        Gate against the attempt of a memorial.
   MR IRVING:  What year was that?  29th January what year?
   A.   2000, just to give a kind of overview how this conflation
        took place.
   MR RAMPTON:  Good.  I have only three others on my list at the
        moment.  We may have to ask further questions when we look
        at the tapes, Professor.  A man called Thies
        Christophersen, tell us about him.  Tell us, first,
        whether he has been associated with Mr Irving, will you?

.          P-38

   A.   Very much so because Thies Christophersen is one of the
        networkers who is on the very radical side of the clear
        cut Holocaust denier.  He has some resonance in these
        groups by having been in Auschwitz as a kind of lower
        officer in the kind of garden area near to the camps.  So
        he pretend to know all about Auschwitz, and he wrote one
        of these famous books "Die Auschwitz-Luge", "The Auschwitz
        Lie".  So he organized that he was very sharp in
        presenting his case.  So he was caught, he was attacked by
        the judicial authorities, so he had to leave Germany.
                  He resided in -- he lived in Kolant in Denmark
        for a period of time and, to make it very clear, he is one
        of those who combined this radical revisionists with the
   Q.   Right, so, in other words, he makes a bridge or link?
   A.   Yes, he is one of the bridges the linkers.
   Q.   The neo-Nazis on the one side?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And the Holocaust deniers on the other?
   A.   Yes.  So he was also responsible for this Hagenau meeting
        to a degree and the revisionists' meetings at that time.
        He died then in the '90s.
   Q.   Yes, when we look at the Hagenau meeting which is the
        first one we will look at, it is quite short, that was
        organized by Christophersen, is that right?
   A.   So far I recall, yes.

.          P-39

   Q.   And I think we are going to see, but you will tell us
        whether we are right, Arthur Butts?
   A.   We do not see him, but it is said that, according to
        sources, that he is there.
   Q.   OK, yes.  Christian Worch whom you can identify?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Karl Philipp you think?
   A.   I think.  The sources says it, but we cannot see him
        that meeting.  I think we will see him in another
   Q.   Right.  Wilhelm Staglich?
   A.   So far as I recall, he could -- you could see him.
   Q.   If Worch and Staglich are both there, then, on the one
        hand, you have a neo-Nazi Worch and, on the other
        you have a denier in Staglich?
   A.   Yes, this is a very interesting point, that you have a
        kind interaction to say the minimum between this kind
        revisionists and this kind of neoNazis, that has, of
        course, something to do with the ideas behind.  So
        was a conflation.  And to say in one sentence more
        that, especially in Germany and Austria, if in any
        neo-Nazis can get some success, political success,
        have to do as the first thing to by any means try to
        rehabilitate National Socialism as far as it is
        This is the crucial point.  By denying, by
        by blaming the Jews as those who made it up or who did
        or who let it do, so by all various kinds of

.          P-40

        agitations, to downplay this Nazi period, to restore,
        know, the kind of proud of the extreme Aryan racist
        anti-Semitic nation.  This is the bottom line of it.
        they conflate one and again, once and again.
   Q.   Do I understand what you have just said to involve, I
        you do not mind a little piece of colloquial English,
        you are telling us that your familiarity with neo-Nazi
        denialist publications, utterances, speeches, and so
        and so forth, one of their themes is that the Jews had
        coming to them and brought it on themselves?
   A.   Yes, this is one of the most, if I may say personally,
        most striking things, that it is said that in the
        of centuries or, to quote David Irving, of 3,000 years
        one of his quotations, the Jews are responsible
        they are disliked.  Whether -- and the direction is
        the Jews are the reasons for being disliked because of
        their various behaviour, alleged behaviours, and so
        are responsible, they are so to speak ----
   THE INTERPRETER:  They carry part of the guilt.
   MR RAMPTON:  Sorry?
   A.   They carry part of the guilt or the whole guilt that
        were murdered, and in a quite illogical, irrational
        this is then changed by saying, "OK, but the Holocaust
        not happen, at least not to the degree" so you have a
        double ----
   Q.   One might ----

.          P-41

   A.   --- double standard ----
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   --- double meaning, a kind of controversial in itself,
        this can only be solved by the distance and even
        against the Jews in that camp.
   Q.   Can I stick with what I was on?  We have seen the
        and other passages from Mr Irving's utterances that
        speak of, my question is this.  Is that thought,
really it
        is all the Jews' own fault, if it did happen, which it
        not, they deserved it or they brought it on
        is that a common theme amongst the denialist and neo-
        publications with which you are familiar in Germany?
   A.   It comes always to the fore.  If you see Hagenau, you
        all of a sudden Mr Zundel rousing his voice and
         "This Juden pack".
   Q.   What does that mean?
   A.   I do not know.
   THE INTERPRETER:  "Pack of Jews".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  A pack.
   MR RAMPTON:  A pack of Jews?
   A.   It is a very negative connotation.
   MR RAMPTON:  What, as though the were dogs or something?
   A.   It is a kind of bunch of people who are doing this
        ugly thing.  It is a kind of slogan we know in
        "Juden pack", these people who are doing this bad
   THE INTERPRETER:  "Pack" meaning low people with low

.          P-42

   A.   So just a representation of aggression, of very
        and humiliating the Jews.
   MR RAMPTON:  This is the famous Ernst Zundel from Canada,
   A.   Right.
   MR RAMPTON:  Goodness me!
   MR IRVING:  There is no suggestion that I had used words
   MR RAMPTON:  There is a suggestion that Mr Irving was at
        meeting and made a speech, is there not, to this
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   People like Mr Zundel?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  At Hagenau, yes.
   A.   Maybe he did not hear him, but he was there.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  Hagenau is in Alsace, is it not?  It is
   A.   Yes, in Alsace.
   Q.   Then two others, finally, who are not on my list --
        may be others when we look at the tape -- Professor,
        is a Spanish man, I think, called Pedro Verala, who is
   A.   It is again one of the -- you know, he is the
successor of
        a bunch of neo-Nazis who fled to Spain because, as you
        know, the Franco Spain was a kind of resort area for
        National Socialists.
   Q.   Yes.  He is what?  He is a neo-Nazi or revisionist?

.          P-43

        is he?
   A.   Both.
   Q.   Both.   Finally, then, a somewhat curious figure
        all these Aryans, somebody Ahmed Rami.  Who is he?
   A.   He is a wide anti-Semite, to say the minimum.
   Q.   Where does he come from?
   A.   Stockholm, but original descent from Morocco.  He is
        talking in the second Leuchter Congress, you will see
        if you decide to.
   Q.   He speaks in French?
   A.   He speaks in French.  He is always talking about the
        Zionist Mafia who lead the world and this kind of, 20
        minutes in this video, so you will see how long you
        view it.
   Q.   Do you propose any further connection between Mr
        and -- I have lost his name?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The Spaniard.
   MR RAMPTON:  Verala and Rami, other than that they appeared
        this meeting in Munich together on 21st?
   A.   So far as I know, but I have to check again in various
        revisionists meetings -- no, excuse me, no.  David
        was invited by this camp in Spain and spoke.
   Q.   Oh, really?  Do you know when?
   A.   Excuse me?
   Q.   When?
   A.   In that same, I have lost it, I have to check it, but

.          P-44

        the late 80s, early 90s.  I read the diaries from 1989
         '93 and there he was in Spain.  But it must have been
        quite successful, but I have to recall when it was.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Invited by?
   A.   Give me a minute, so I will say to you in a minute.
   Q.   Invited by Verala, is that what you are saying?
   A.   Yes, so they know each other.  You know, it is a
        tiny group who interacted between each other on
        levels and various levels of intensity, so sometimes I
        mixed up but not on the basic things.
   MR RAMPTON:  Looking at the whole spread of material,
        Professor, looking at the whole spread of material
        you have been through in detail, so far as Mr Irving's
        connections with these various people and groups are
        concerned, how deep would you say that his involvement
        these affairs is?
   A.   I think very -- he was involved very much in this
        affairs.  Not to get mixed up, I did a show picture to
        this ----
   A.   --- a graph to represent this interactions, and you
        you know, the whole bench of revisionists from Tony
        Hancock, Peter Verala, Staglich, Valendi, Otto Ernst
        Remer, Ahmed Rami, Zundel, Zundel as one of the main
        persons, together with Christophersen and Mark Rebo of
        in California, on the one hand, then you have an

.          P-45

        interconnecting person, Karl Philipp, then you have,
        the other hand, the Althans group and the person
        especially, and then you have some Austrians, by the
        very famous right-wing extremists, like Rephandel in
        Skrinski, who are known to David Irving, then you have
        DVU connection we did not talk about in the '80s.

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