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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts//day026.14

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day026.14
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

   Q.   Now I am going to struggle on my own because my
        translation runs out there: "Of the Polish Jews since
        16th January 1942 a total of 44,152 were outsettled".  We
        do not have that word but that is what it means, deported?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "Of those from the outReich, the Ostmacht and the
        Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia who came in October
        1941, in das hiesige" - what does that mean?

.          P-123

   THE INTERPRETER:  The ghetto here.
   MR RAMPTON:  "In the here ghetto", yes, "who came in, 19,848
        Jews", the total that is, "10,993 were evacuated", yes?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "So that", nunmehr?
   A.   Now.
   Q.   "Now we have made room in the ghetto for about 55,000
   A.   Yes, that is correct.
   Q.   Is that correct?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I do not need to go any further.  Does that illustrate
        precisely the process that you have been describing to us?
   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, up to a point.  What is puzzling me
        about that is that some of the Jews who were being
        evacuated out of ghetto, presumably to Chelmno, were in
        fact Jews from the outReich, 10,000 of them?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, it look like it, nearly 11,000.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It seems rather an odd way of going about it
        in a sort of way.
   MR RAMPTON:  Presumably there is pressure from those coming in.
   A.   It does not say what happens.  I would assume that the
        largest number of the 19,000 Jews are dead at this time.
   MR RAMPTON:  I can tell you that, if you read the text, the

.          P-124

        total number that were ausgesiedelt, whether from Poland
        or originally from the outReich or whatever, is 54,145.
        If you look at the table, almost all of those went to
        Kulmhof, because the total that went to Kulmhof or Chelmno
        is 54,990.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So they were not dead?
   A.   Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  They were.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  They were dead later.
   MR RAMPTON:  Did this happen quite often, that 11,000 Jews
        brought in from Berlin in October and other parts of the
        greater Reich would then be taken off to Chelmno and
        gassed six months later?
   A.   These are the transport in October 1941, about 20,000 were
        transported to the ghetto, and a large number of them died
        during the winter.
   Q.   I see.
   A.   They then transported 10,000 to Chelmno and the rest of
        them they could obviously use for work assignments.
   Q.   More would come in to take their place?
   A.   Yes. They make place for the local Jews in the Warthegau
        who actually are brought into the ghetto.
   Q.   Is there any more of this report that we need to look at?
        It is your document, it comes from your report.
   A.   No, I do not think so.
   Q.   No.  My Lord those are all the questions I have in

.          P-125

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much, Mr Rampton.
        Dr Longerich, eventually that concludes your evidence I think.
   A.   Thank you.

(The witness stood down).

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, Mr Irving.  Now are you going at this
        stage to make the submissions you mentioned this morning
        about the ----
   MR IRVING:  After two or three other minor points, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, all right.  Deal with the others first.
   MR IRVING:  Firstly, my Lord, the defendants are relying quite
        heavily on the Muller document of 1st August 1941.  I do
        feel that I need to see the original, or at least to know
        where the original is.  The Bundesarchive, as I told your
        Lordship, has told me it is not in the file that has been
        quoted by the Defendants as the source.  We have only been
        shown transcripts of it.  I would like to see either a
        facsimile or to know reliably where the document is.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Just let us have a look.
   MR IRVING:  I showed your Lordship my correspondence with the
        German Federal Archives in which they said they had
        checked the file and they have not found the document in
        the file as stated by the Defendants.
   MR RAMPTON:  I think this has been sorted, but, my Lord, can I
        just ask Dr Longerich, because I think he probably has the

.          P-126

        answer to this.  I think the short answer is, from what
        I remember of what I was told, is that, when Mr Irving --
        it is not Mr Irving's fault -- telephoned to look for the
        document, they looked in the wrong file.  I think it is as
        simple as that.  I am quite certain that the document is
        there and elsewhere.  I have a belief that it is at
        Ludwigsberg, which is the centre for prosecutions, but can
        I just take instructions?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, do.
   MR RAMPTON:  Can we have a small conference, my Lord?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, please do.
   MR IRVING:  Quite simply, my Lord, the reason is that I would
        like to know what else is in that file, of course.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Pause a minute and we will see what the
        result of the huddle is.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry about that, my Lord, but I think I am
        right.  The united brains of German historical research
        tell me that the file number which was given by Mr Irving,
        through no fault of his own, to the person at the
        Bundesarchive was the wrong one.  It is in the
        Bundesarchive, but it is also in the Zentralstelle at Ludwigsberg.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are they both Abschrifts?
   MR RAMPTON:  That I do not know.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Because what Mr Irving is really looking for
        I think is the one that is not an Abschrift, if there is

.          P-127

   MR RAMPTON:  By picking up the telephone, if Mr Irving's
        attempt failed, we will try and have a successful attempt
        to get it from both places, if it is going to be possible
        at any rate before the case is finished.  Whether it is an
        Abschrift or not, I do not know.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What you may not have heard Mr Irving say was
        that he is also interested in knowing what else is in the
        particular file which it is in, if it is in any file.
   MR RAMPTON:  Then I think he must go and look for that himself.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think he has the problem, at any rate with
        some of the archives, that he has not got access to them.
        Is that what you would say?
   MR IRVING:  The German government archives are corresponding
        with me because I am offering them something by way of a
        horse trade at present.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Why do you not keep that up?  What are you
        asking me to do?
   MR IRVING:  I need to know the actual file number of course, my
        Lord.  I need to know the correct file number.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is fair enough.  Mr Rampton, when you
        have found out which file number or numbers it is in, will
        you pass that on to Mr Irving?
   MR RAMPTON: Yes, we will let Mr Irving know.
   MR IRVING:  The second problem, my Lord, it is not a problem,
        is that I learned from yesterday's Israeli newspapers that

.          P-128

        the Defendants are applying for access to Adolf Eichmann's
        private papers.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I saw that this morning.
   MR IRVING:  I welcome this initiative.  Would they also apply
        to the Israeli government for access to Heinrich Himmler's
        private diaries which are in the Israeli archives?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That, I am afraid, is something that is
        beyond my power, because I can only order that things that
        are within their power be disclosed and I do not think
        that they have the power.
   MR IRVING:  Perhaps it will resonate off your Lordship on to
        the defence side and, if they hear from me that Himmler's
        diaries are in Israeli hands----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is very flattering to me, Mr Irving
        but I think it is overstating the position.
   MR IRVING:  The third point is that, once again, the Defendants
        have dropped on me from a great height on Friday evening
        several hundreds of pages of documents, expecting me to
        read them in time for the cross-examination.  These are
        the bundles RWE1 and 2, which your Lordship probably has
        also received.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  I am afraid I have not had time even to
        dip into them.
   MR IRVING:  I apprehend that RWE stands for right-wing
        extremism, which takes me on to the main point which I am
        going to make now, the main submission I am going to make.

.          P-129

   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I have taken the opportunity to go back to
        the original pleadings to see what the issues are.  The
        issues as pleaded, as set out in my Statement of Claim,
        I have looked through for any reference to right-wingism
        and to extremism and, if I can just hand your Lordship
        this page, it is the only reference in the Statement of
        Claim to either extremism or right-wingism.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I suggest that the starting point
        probably is to see what Professor Lipstadt wrote in her
        book?  Would you agree with me that the references to what
        you might call right-wing extremism is the passage on page
        14, am I right?  Have you got the Statement of Claim or
        her book?
   MR IRVING:  I do not have the Statement of Claim in front of
        me.  I only have the words complained of and the meaning
        which I attach to those words.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, yes, the reason for starting with what
        is written is that what you attach to Professor Lipstadt's
        words by way of natural and ordinary meaning is not, as it
        were, the last word.  You have to see also what was
        actually written by the Defendant.
   MR IRVING:  Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Which is why I suggest you should start
        with -- have you not got the Statement of Claim?
   MR IRVING:  Yes.

.          P-130

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Shall I read to you, and you will remember
        it, what it says:  "The confluence between anti-Israel,
        anti-semitic and Holocaust denial forces was exemplified
        by a world anit-Zionist conference scheduled for Sweden in
        November 19922, and then says it is cancelled, but there
        were a whole lot of scheduled speakers, including black
        Muslim leader Ferikan, Faurisson:  "Also scheduled to
        participate were representatives of various anti-Semitic
        and anti-Israel organizations, including Hamyat,
        Hesbollah, Hamas, and then I think I am right in saying
        that later on she returns to the same general topic.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, your Lordship might also read 161.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I knew there was another relevant bit.
   MR RAMPTON:  122 to 130.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:   There is a reference to your having appeared
        at IHR conferences.  I do not want to read great chunks of
        this out.
   MR IRVING:  No, my Lord.  It is the extremism we are looking
        for, and really the relevance of any extremism.  I believe
        the allegation is association with extremists.
   MR IRVING:  Or extremist associations.  I am anxious to try to
        shorten the whole process, particularly I am anxious to
        shorten any other public flogging which is held in
        prospect for me.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us just take in what I hope logical are

.          P-131

        stages.  I think I am missing out a passage which may be
        relevant to this, but anyway those are things that
        Professor Lipstadt writes.  Then you, as you say, put on
        those words as one of the meanings ----
   MR IRVING:  The only relevant meaning is that in the next
        paragraph 9.1, that the Plaintiff is dangerous
        spokesperson for Holocaust denial forces, who deliberately
        and knowingly consorts and consorted with anti-Israel,
        anti-semitic and Holocaust denial forces, agreeing to
        appear in public in support of and along side violent
        extremist speakers, and I emphasis the words "violent and"
        because associating with extremists is not in itself reprehensible.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Perhaps one ought just to read to the end of
        that, because it is all part of the meaning you put on the words.
   MR IRVING:  Indeed, yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Including, to take it shortly, Hesbollah,
        Ferikan, Jew baiting black agitator, and so on.
   MR IRVING:  That is right.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Admirer of Colonel Gadaffi.

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