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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit//transcripts//day007.22


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day007.22
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   I did not ask you about the sober sentiment.

.          P-190


   A.   And that they are at risk of being of compared with
        Dr Goebbels if they do?
   Q.   You never ever answer my question, Mr Irving.
   A.   That was a very good answer, I believe.
   Q.   No, Mr Irving, because you do not listen or because
you do
        not want to listen.  My question was not about sober
        sentiment, ill-conceived though it may be.  My
question
        was about the wording, the language, of that passage
that
        I read.
   A.   Which particular words are we looking at here? Can you
        pick on any particular inflammatory words?
   Q.   Please go back to page 22.  I am not going to read it
out
        again.
   A.   Just the Goebbels type of words.
   Q.   "Because if it is" down to the bottom of the page
ending
        with the word "Jewish comment".
   A.   Is the word "Jewish" a Goebbels word perhaps?
   Q.   No. Please just quietly re-read that section of what
you
        said to yourself and tell me when you have got to the
        bottom of the page.
   A.   I think I am entitled to know which words you consider
are
        typical of Dr Goebbels.
   Q.   Will you please read it and then I will tell you.
   A.   My Lord, will you direct him to identify the words he
        considers ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If you know it by heart then you do not
need

.          P-191



        to read it.
   A.   I do not know it by heart.
   MR RAMPTON:  The whole passage.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It is redolent of animosity, hostility, contempt,
spite,
        malignantly, just like Dr Goebbels articles in Das
Reich?
   A.   Just like Winston Churchill talking about Adolf Hitler
if
        you want to put it like that.  Any number of people
who
        are capable speakers are capable of using language.
   Q.   Absolutely, you have got it in one, Mr Irving.
        Mr Churchill rallied this country to the flag during
the
        war by being spiteful and beastly about Adolf Hitler.
The
        difference is, unlikely Dr Goebbels, Winston Churchill
had
        a very good reason to be spiteful.
   A.   But do not these particular gentleman who I have
        identified by name deserve our contempt, or are you
        supporter of these gentlemen who bilked ordinary
people
        out of thousands pounds and their entire life savings
as
        well.
   Q.   You do not have to give a list of names.  All you need
to
        say is the sober sentiment, if you believe it.  The
        trouble is or one of the problems with the Holocaust
is
        that it is sometimes apt to protect some Jewish people
who
        have broken the law?
   A.   No, I gave chapter and verse.  These are specific
        instances which were probably in the news at the time,
I

.          P-192



        think Ivan Boesky was in the news at that time, Mr
        Gutfreund, Mr Milken was certainly in the news at that
        that time.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us move on.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes I am trying to.
   A.   If you cannot identify which particular words you are
        identifying with Dr. Goebbels ----
   Q.   I am looking at the flavour of the whole passages.
   A.   Anybody can play that game, Mr Rampton can.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So am I. We are moving on.
   MR RAMPTON:  And so is his Lordship.  I am grateful.
   A.   Would you accuse Professor Peter Novac also using the
        language of Dr Goebbels in his ----
   Q.   No, because he does not write like that.
   A.   He is a Professor and he is Jewish, so he is allowed
to do
        it but non-Jews are excluded.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You can deal with this in your own
evidence,
        if you wish.
   A.   I certainly shall, my Lord.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, this is Chelsea Town Hall.  This is
tab
        11 of the same file.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Page 2.
   MR RAMPTON:  Page 2, yes.  A couple of a very short
passages on
        this page.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The first one is by the upper hole punch.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, that is right.  Say you, Mr Irving:

.          P-193



                  "If you look at my great Adolf Hitler
biography
        here, this bumper Adolf Hitler biography that we have
only
        just published, in fact it literally arrived off the
        printing presses today, you won't find the Holocaust
        mentioned in one line, not even a footnote.  Why
should we
        if something did not happen and you don't even dignify
it
        with a footnote".  That is in plain terms an assertion
by
        you that the Holocaust did not happen?
   A.   We have not even heard the word "Holocaust".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This is a speech you made, is it not?
   MR RAMPTON:  I am so sorry, Mr Irving, look at the
penultimate
        line of the passage I have just read..
   A.   Am I looking at the wrong passage?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think I it must, because it starts, "if
You
        look at my great Adolf Hitler biography", which sounds
as
        if it could be you speaking.
   A.   I see right, yes.
   Q.   Did you say that?
   A.   Well, obviously the reference, as we have now found
out,
        the word "Holocaust" has been taken out of the second
        volume, yes.  You will not find "Holocaust" mentioned
in
        this book.
   Q.   Because it did not happen, that is what you are
saying?
   A.   Well, I do not want to quibble about this too much,
but we
        do not really know what we are talking about when we
are
        saying if something did not happen.  I know his
Lordship

.          P-194



        will interrupt and say straightaway you are referring
to
        the Holocaust, but we do not know how much of a pause
        there is there.  We do not know what emphasis is made
        here.  We have to look at the whole speech.  The
        references later on you will see to the bars of soap
and
        so on, which clearly did not happen because that has
now
        been admitted.  I mean that is what we are building up
        to.  This is a topic sentence.
   MR RAMPTON:  I know it is late but I really do not think
you
        are doing yourself justice.  Look down to the bottom
page
        at 001425.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Read it out loud, will you?
   A.   Well, I am looking at a paragraph which you want
skipped.
   Q.   No.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is there in there that you really
derive
        any assistance from?
   A.   "Two years from now nobody in the world will believe
in
        these absurd legends any longer. They already don't
        believe in the absurd legends of Jewish concentration
camp
        prisoners being turned into bars of soap, because Jad
        Vaschen has now formally admitted that that was a
lie."
        So this is what I am talking about, if things do not
        happen they do not deserve a footnote.  So I am being
        specific in what follows by what I mean.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, I know you like your platform and I
am

.          P-195



        sure you want to get into the newspapers.
   A.   Can I now interrupt with the utmost respect, Mr
Rampton,
        if you move that sentence "if something didn't happen
and
        you don't even dignify it with a footnote", the
beginning
        of the following paragraph, then it becomes the famous
        topic sentence of which I have spoken earlier giving
the
        topic of what follows in the following paragraph and
that
        is what it is.  It has been put deliberately into the
        paragraph above to make it look as though it is
applying
        to the word "Holocaust".
   Q.   Now look, Mr Irving, we can go a lot quicker if you
just
        occasionally ----
   A.   I know you do not like these answers because of course
it
        is a total answer to what you just said, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   That is a matter for his Lordship.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I heard the answer.
   MR RAMPTON:  I think it is one of the worst answers you
have
        given and that is saying something, Mr Irving.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is comment and I think we will move
on
        to the lower quote.
   A.   Maybe his Lordship thinks differently but his Lordship
has
        heard from me about topic sentences and that is a
clear
        example of a topic.
   MR RAMPTON:  If you will please stop talking for one minute
I
        will show ----
   A.   I was about to say the same to you.

.          P-196



   Q.   --- I will show you why it is such a rotten answer.
Read
        the first sentence of the last paragraph out loud.
   A.   "The biggest lie of the lot, the blood libel on the
German
        people, because people were hanged for this, as I call
it,
        is the lie that the Germans had factories of death
with
        gas chambers in which they liquidated millions of
their
        opponents."
   Q.   Thank you very much, Mr Irving.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think that is a convenient point at
which
        to break off.
   MR RAMPTON:  I just want to take one more ----
   A.   Truth is an absolute justification of that remark of
        course.
   MR RAMPTON:  --- little line from this transcript.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I did not know there was any more.  I am
        sorry.
   MR RAMPTON:  There is one line on page 4.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, page 6.  Page 4.  I think there is
also
        something on page 6.
   MR RAMPTON:  There is.  I will just tell your Lordship
which it
        is.  I do not need to read that out yet again.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Page 4.
   MR RAMPTON:  Page 4, the last line of the second paragraph,
the
        last sentence: "So Fred Leuchter is poisoned for the
whole
        of the Holocaust legend."  The whole of the Holocaust
        legend.  "The whole of the Holocaust legend" includes
all

.          P-197



        alleged gas chambers anywhere in Nazi occupied Europe,
        does it not?
   A.   He is bad news in the sense, as I said in the earlier
        speech, once people have heard the data that Fred
Leuchter
        brought back, the forensic laboratory results, they go
        away thinking, they begin asking awkward questions.
That
        is what is meant by that sentence and certainly no
more.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, if that is convenient, there is one
        matter I wish to raise.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  I think it is.  I am just looking
to
        see whether we ought to deal with the passage I have
        marked on page 6.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, very well.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is about just below the lower hole
punch.
        I have marked it presumably because you relied on it
in
        your Summary of Case.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  Page 6, last paragraph, Mr Irving.  You
say
        about five lines down: "If I can just dot the i's
cross
        the t's to some of these details of details of
details.
        He mentioned that after Fred Leuchter did his truly
epoch
        making investigation of the gas chambers" plural "at
        Auschwitz, the forensic laboratory tests which yielded
the
        extraordinary result which converted me, made me into
a
        hardcore disbeliever."
                  Yes?  I will read on if you like.

.          P-198



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It does not affect the context, the sense
of
        it.
   MR RAMPTON:  It does not affect the context?
   A.   I do not think it takes it very much further, that
        sentence, my Lord.
   MR RAMPTON:  You are by this date, are you not, November
28th
        1991, a hardcore disbeliever in the whole of the
Holocaust
        proposition?
   A.   You are incorrigible, Mr Rampton.  We have just been
        talking about the gas chambers.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think we will leave the evidence there
        because there may be some more
                     (Administrative Discussion)
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Monday 10.30.
                  < (The witness stood down)
        (The Court adjourned until Monday, 24th January 2000)


.          P-199




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