Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day007.17 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think this is a debate that may need to take place at some stage, but I think it is not productive at this stage. A. I am astonished to hear Mr Rampton say that it is not about ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I know what he means and I know your response to it, but let us postpone this. MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, we are dealing here, as you yourself said this morning, you opened with some reference to a state of a man's mind taken from a legal case, what we are dealing here with, Mr Irving, is your state of mind at the . P-144 time when you made these statements? A. In August. Q. And subsequently. A. Yes. Q. Not about whether you were right or wrong, as a matter of objective fact. Do you understand? A. But it is about both matters together taken in tandem. Q. No, no, we are not. In this part of the cross- examination we are simply dealing with what you said, why you said it and what basis you had for saying it -- you had. A. So the allegation is David Irving was right, but how tasteless the way he put it? MR RAMPTON: No. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us press on. For what it is worth, I think the way Mr Rampton puts it just now is precisely right, but please let us not prolong the debate. MR RAMPTON: Keep in the front of your mind what the Judge said, lest you go down some other routes or you may get a ticking off from the bench, Mr Irving? A. That is a risk when one is under cross-examination for several days. MR RAMPTON: Please turn to page 12, Mr Irving. A. Yes. Q. I will start at 549. I am not at all sure what you are talking about but I do not think it matters. Towards the top of the page: "I do not like the historian writers who . P-145 have been going around for last the 20 years saying this. I do not like them because they have not been using scientific methods". You know their names because they frequently appear in the newspapers under attack and they have done our cause quite a lot harm I think." Can I pause there? What do you mean by the words "our cause"? Whose cause? A. Do you mind if I read these few lines again to try to work out what I am talking about? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Please do. MR RAMPTON: And back if you want as well for the content. A. It is a problem. You leap forward ten pages and then say who are we talking about? I do not know. I do not know who we are talking about there. Q. These people, whoever they are, have been blundering about in the room, saying things or doing things you do not like? A. Yes. Q. You say:"These people have done our cause quite a lot of harm". Whose cause, Mr Irving? A. I do not know. I do not know who I am talking about. Q. You are talking about the cause of like minded anti-Semitic Holocaust deniers, are you not? A. I do not think there is the slight hint of that in those lines. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who else's cause would you be talking of? . P-146 A. Obviously I am going to have to read the previous page to see who we are talking about then. (Pause for reading) One interpretation is that it is the defence team of Mr Zundel, who was at that time under appeal, or I think the case was ongoing against him. Or historians like myself. To try and put in words like anti-Semitic and things like that I think is not very helpful. Q. You may as well have them now, Mr Irving. You will get at the end anyway. A. Are you going to imply that I am anti-Semitic, are you, or my friends are anti-Semitic? Q. I have said it in opening and I will say it again now if it pleases you so that you will have it in mind ---- A. So the newspapers will have it tomorrow, yes. Q. You may or may not do, but you will certainly get it at the end of case when we have looked at all the evidence. Our case is that you consort with people who are deeply anti-Semitic, and you do it quite frequently, not all the time. A. So did Winston Churchill. Most of his Cabinet ministers were anti-Semitic but does it make Winston Churchill anti-Semitic? Q. Two blacks do not make a white? A. I am not calling Mr Winston Churchill black. I am just giving that as an example that that is not so far very good evidence. . P-147 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton was putting his case to you. Perhaps wait until you have the whole of it and then comment. MR RAMPTON: What is more, Mr Irving ---- A. This is a very serious charge to make, of course. MR RAMPTON: Of course it is. It is a charge I made in opening the case and I intend to make it good. A. You did not make the anti-Semitic charge in opening the case. Q. I made the charge that you made statements, and I now add the word "deliberately", which are deliberately designed to feed the virulent anti-Semitism which alas today in the world is still alive and kicking, and you know perfectly well that that is what you are doing. I further say, and we will look at some of this down the line, that some of the observations you make on these occasions are themselves greatly anti-Semitic. A. Well, no doubt we can take each of these seriatim when we come to them. Q. We will. You will remember the one that I read out in opening, will you not? A. Mr Rampton, your instructing solicitors may not have told you but we had correspondence on this matter, and I invited the solicitors to say to me whether they were going to level at me the allegation that I am anti- Semitic so that I would have the opportunity to lead evidence on . P-148 that. They refused to state at that time that that was their intention. You are now coming totally against the principles of the new rules with this fresh allegation that I am in some way anti-Semitic. Q. No, I did not say that. A. I think it is highly improper. Q. If you will read the transcript of what I said I chose my words very carefully. A. I am sure you did, Mr Rampton, so that they get in the newspapers in that form tomorrow. I am sure you know exactly how carefully to choose your words to make a slur like that. Q. I do. That is why they pay me, Mr Irving. Precision is everything, I find. You make observations -- I am trying to repeat myself without looking at the screen -- which can fairly characterised -- I am not sure that I have it verbatim -- as grossly anti-Semitic on these occasions. A. I am not going to dignify that with an answer, Mr Rampton, unless his Lord invites me to. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, you do not have to. I will invite Mr Rampton in due course to make that good by reference to what you said. That is elementary fairness to you. A. To lead appropriate evidence. MR RAMPTON: Thank you. I could not possibly say it if I did not have that intention, Mr Irving. A. It would have been nice if your solicitors had informed me . P-149 in good time that this was going to be your intention, which would have given us time over the months to build up the appropriate dossier of counter material. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a fair point because I am not sure this is spelled out quite as clearly as you did just now, Mr Rampton. A. Very clearly indeed in the correspondence between the parties. MR RAMPTON: It is not spelled out clearly in the original defence, my Lord, I accept. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have just been looking at the way it is put ---- MR RAMPTON: I think it is spelled out very clearly in the statement of case. I think it is. I think I read it the other day. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Tab 6, not so clearly as all that. A. But this is clearly playing to the gallery in the form of the press gallery. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, really, I must be the judge of that, must I not? A. It goes to the conduct by the Defendants of the case when the time comes, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course it does. MR RAMPTON: Do you know anything at all about life at the Bar, Mr Irving? Do you know anything about the rules under which we operate? . P-150 A. I am totally ignorant, as you are now well aware, Mr Rampton. Q. If you did, you might not say something like that? A. I am aware you are not supposed to lead evidence you cannot justify. Q. I am never supposed to say anything that I do not think can be justified, that is right. MR JUSTICE GRAY: In the summary of case, which is quite short and that is to its credit, I think you will see the observation I just made is perhaps not an unfair one. MR RAMPTON: I did not sorry, I did not catch your Lordship's observation. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I said that I did not read the summary of case as putting the Defendants' case as clearly and in quite the terms that you put just now. MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I do not think I can do better, and I do not think I did better just now, than what appears in box 80 on page 27. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was looking at the front. You are looking at the end. MR RAMPTON: I am looking at the summary we give of what we say is to be drawn from the content of Mr Irving's speeches. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you want to have a look at that, Mr Irving? A. I think your Lordship sees my objection to this particular kind of thrust. . P-151 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. MR RAMPTON: Shall I read it, Mr Irving? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you ought to, Mr Rampton, because I think you have corrected me rightly, if I may say so. MR RAMPTON: "P - that is P for plaintiff as he then was - Mr Irving, is a right-wing pro Nazi ideologue, as is demonstrated by the views he has expressed in his speeches and publications. The Defendants will refer to the anti-Semitic racist and misogynistic tone and contents of Mr Irving's speeches and publications, including those referred to above and in sections 1-5". A. Very well. If you are going to lead evidence about that topic, then you ought to do so earlier, sooner rather than later. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a fair point. The evidence must be led. But that is the case. It is spelled out clearly. A. Sooner rather than later, rather than leaving this allegation in suspense. MR RAMPTON: That is what I am starting on now. I have just started on your speeches and publication. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we press on? MR RAMPTON: Where am I now? I am still in 1988. MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are still in Ottawa. MR RAMPTON: Or was it Toronto? That is what I am going to try and prove, Mr Irving, over the next few hours or days or however long it may take. . P-152 A. Would your Lordship allow me then to lead evidence to refute these allegation? S. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes of course. A. I am not sure how we can do it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: You can do it yourself. A. Or I can put it to one of the experts, Professor Levin or Professor Eatwell. It is an easy slur to make, but it sticks. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us concentrate on the evidence that is going to be put now. MR RAMPTON: The only thing which is going to stick in this case, Mr Irving, is his Lordship's judgment. At least, I hope so. A. Shall we proceed with the questioning, Mr Rampton.
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