Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day028.02 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much, Professor Funke, for those three points. Mr Irving? MR IRVING: My Lord, I do not think your Lordship will attach much attention to whether other members of the audience went off on a demonstration which was illegal or not. I would invite straightaway, therefore, this witness to . P-9 have a look at page 11 of the little bundle. A. This new one or the old one. MR IRVING: It is today's bundle. A. Today's bundle? OK. Q. It is the bundle beginning with some German pages. If you look at page 11, that should be the diary concerned, April 21st 1990, is that correct? A. No, I have here ---- Q. No, not photographs. It is another bundle. A. Excuse me. It is a new bundle of yesterday? Q. Of today. A. Today, OK, good. Q. Page 11. Is this the diary entry to which you have just referred? A. It seems to, yes, in a different written form. Q. A different format, yes? A. Yes, format. Q. My Lord, I do not propose to read the whole diary entry out, of course, but I would just invite this witness - --- MR JUSTICE GRAY: If Miss Rogers can give me the reference in RWE 1 or 2, I would be grateful for this diary entry, April 21st. MS ROGERS: If it is on 21st April, it is RWE 2, tab 11, pages 19 to 20. MR IRVING: My Lord, what I have given your Lordship in this morning's bundle is the entire diary entry. I am not sure . P-10 how far the entry has been redacted, if at all, in RW- --- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us move on with it. MR IRVING: Would you just run your eye down those two pages which I have given you? A. Yes. Q. Beginning with the first page, page 11, the second paragraph? A. Yes. Q. Beginning with the phrase: "The audience stormed out into the streets"? A. Right. Q. "Taking about half an hour to assemble outside, I remained inside", does it say that? A. Yes. Q. How could I have joined a demonstration if I remained inside? A. Look ---- Q. Selling books, pack ---- A. --- look further down to your own diary. Q. Then it says: "Job finished. The driver suggested he drive me to the Hotel Dreilogen? A. Yes. Q. "Via the route", in other words, "driving by the route taken by this spontaneous demonstration"? A. Yes. Q. So I was not part of the demonstration; I was driving past . P-11 it to see what the fuss was because there had been police flashing lights, and so on? Right? A. I see it. Q. "I got out of the car" -- this is four lines from the bottom "because I sighted my dinner guests. Crossed to say hello to them. There was some annoyance on the part of the demonstrators that I had not been with them". Did you see that? Why did you not quote that? A. Right, right. Q. I was not part of the demonstration. I do not really want, unless you wish to draw attention to any other parts of that diary entry? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I suspect he wants to read on to the bottom of the page, is that right? A. Shall I read it to the court? Q. No. Read the bits of it that you rely on. MR IRVING: Yes. A. So, "I sighted Uschi who had invited me to dinner. Got out of car after Daniel Hecht", I think, "crossed to say hello to them. Some annoyance on the 250's part that I had not been with them. I explained I had to pack things up. Two minutes later police trucks arrived with reinforcements. Announced over loud speakers, 'Dieses ist ein angemieldete Sammlung, es ist verbotten. Sie haben alle nach Hausen zugehen'". "This is an illegal demonstration". I can translate it shortly. If you want . P-12 it precise, do it, yes. THE INTERPRETER: "This is a translation (sic) which no notice has been given of. It is forbidden. You are all requested to go home"? A. Right. And I refer to this being "forbidden" in my report ---- THE INTERPRETER: Ordered to go home? A. --- or words to that effect. Q. Can I ask? A. He adds, so then: "Road cordons were thrown across the street ahead of us and we were told to filter through single and disperse. I found myself in an embarrassing position, unwilling to desert audience, but equally unwilling to end up being coshed by a policeman". Q. Coshed by a policeman? A. Yes. "I filtered forwards and after minutes hold up I was allowed through by the cordons. 30 seconds later I was arrested by a small Italian-looking moustached police officer aged perhaps 35 who declared me to be a versammlungsleiter". Q. We do not need the rest. A. This is the point. If you take this part and see the video, there is the moustached and so forth officer and you see before, you know, a march route of a given people. In the front Mr Irving, behind Michael Kuhnen. So, of course, it was some minutes, but you were asked by . P-13 the crowd to enter and you did. MR IRVING: You say some minutes. Can I ask you about the time-scale? A. I do not know the time-scale. I just saw the video and I saw your diary and I saw another clip of Althans given to Zundel or by Zundel presenting the case further down in this document. Q. Can I draw your attention to the second line of that second paragraph on page 11: "I remained inside selling the books, packaging them up and supervising their loading into the two cars". How long do you think that took? A. I do not know. Q. œ2,000 worth of books had to be packaged into boxes, the boxes sealed, loaded into two cars -- three quarters of an hour, an hour? A. I have no problem with that. I did not say you went all along, I do not know, maybe. There is, by the way, if I may add this, there is a longer version of this video, and if it is necessary, if this is a decisive point for the assessment, if I may add ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: It does not strike me as a decisive point. I think we can move on. A. Then I would ask to get this to the court, but it is very difficult because it is in the hands of Michael Schmidt and I have to figure out where he is. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know what the issue is. . P-14 MR IRVING: One more question and this is will you accept, because I asked you this question two or three times yesterday, the video shows clearly that these rather bestraggled demonstrators are actually returning from the demonstration they had been off to at the time I joined them and they are heading north ---- A. That does not fit. Q. Excuse me, they are heading north at the time I joined them, in other words, it is all over -- and do you remember me asking you these questions yesterday? A. Yes. Q. And you made out that you could not recognize the victory monument behind them and so on? A. There is no probability for that. You know, it fits so well with what you are writing in the diary and what is shown in the video that I cannot say "yes" to this question. Q. So you do not accept that it took me one hour to load the boxes of books into the car and to drive off to the hotel and then come back and find the demonstrators walking back from their demonstration at this time this misfortune happened? A. I mean, you had a lot of books to sell, but you need not an hour. I do not know how long it took. Q. Very well. Would you now just have a brief look at photographs, please? The second bundle of photographs. . P-15 We will go through these very quickly. Photographs 1 and 2 are photographs of a meeting of the DVU. Can you see their flag around the podium? A. No, not with this coverage, I mean. Q. All right. A. I cannot see. Q. If you look at the people sitting in the audience there, can you see any skinheads or bovver boots? A. I cannot see. It is so dark, you see, your Lordship. I cannot see it. Maybe ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Look at page 2. It is better. MR IRVING: Perhaps you can borrow mine a second. A. That is better, excuse me. Q. Can you see any skinheads or bovver boots or musclemen? A. I cannot say yes or no, because, you know, in the first, in the first lines they are all with ties and, you know, as DVU presents itself. Q. And the next photograph is a bit clearer? A. But I cannot say yes to your question because afterwards it is totally unclear and I know that DVU has this kind of skinhead appearances. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that is that photograph. MR IRVING: Can you see any banners around the hall with anti-Semitic slogans or Holocaust slogans or anything at all? A. No. . P-16 Q. No banners at all? A. No. Q. The next photograph, page 3, please? A. 3? Q. Does this appear to be police protecting a rather pleasant country building against a number of young people? A. It seems to. Q. Yes. A. What is it? Q. It is in Cologne. I will have to tell you, you will have to just take my word for where these places are. The places are not important really. The next photograph, photograph 5 -- we will just go through them very quickly -- is the Congress Centre in Hamburg? A. Right. Q. Do you see again a line of police protecting the building against, no doubt, unfriendly people outside? A. I cannot say unfriendly, I just see police caps. Q. Shoulder to shoulder, massed against -- protecting the entrance to the building? A. I cannot say anything else because it is unclear. I do not know where and when, so... Q. Yes. A. You may say. Q. Would you like to have a look at photograph No. 9, please? This is the Palace of Culture from Dresden which . P-17 is one of the lectures you refer to, 13th February 1990, I think. There are no kinds of banners or placards or anything anywhere, are there? A. It seems not. There is a picture, you know, I think you are speaking there, and ---- Q. And a picture of myself on the podium? A. Yes, seems to, but I do not know what is written around, above and... MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, we cannot read that. MR IRVING: Photograph No. 10 is obviously some years earlier? A. Yes. Q. Does it look as though I am addressing members of the German Bundeswehr that this is obviously a function - --- A. Yes, seems to, at least the uniforms they are wearing. Q. Photograph No. 11 is the Leuchter press conference to which you refer. It is a sparsely attended press conference? A. Where is it? Q. Have you got photograph No. 11? A. Yes, but where? Q. It is in my home in London. A. OK. Q. Photograph 12, another typical speech that I address in Germany? A. Where is it? Q. That is somewhere in Battenwurtenburg, Singlfingen, . P-18 I think? A. Is it Dria? Q. I beg your pardon? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, it does not really matter, does it? I am not sure these photographs are helping all that much, Mr Irving. MR IRVING: There are no placards, no skinheads. No. 14, I think you probably have my labels now? A. Yes, Hagenau you say? Q. No. 14 is Hagenau. A. Yes. Q. Can you see any of your suspects in that photograph? A. What are you saying? Q. Any of your suspects, like Remer or Kussel or any of these names you are talking about? Are they in that photograph or the next one? A. I have to put up this... Q. These photographs were all available for discovery, my Lord, and not used. Photograph No. 16 ---- A. Wait, wait. I have to see the people. Excuse me. It is not so easy. You know better. It is just 10 faces to 10 faces, right, to see and whatever 80, I cannot see. Q. Would you say it is a very extremist just by the look of it? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you cannot possibly answer from the backs of people's heads whether they are extremist.
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