Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.18
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Maybe I am in the wrong bit.  I think 140 is
        right.
   MR RAMPTON:  I see.  I am sorry.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Maybe you have a better reference.
   MR RAMPTON:  That one?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  I was going to use the two main bundles, but one
        can start with Althans.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I have highlighted the names that
        Mr Rampton referred to this morning.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us go through them so that we all know
        where we are.  Althans, yes.

.          P-159



   MR IRVING:  Christophersen, yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  I will do it, if you do not mind, Mr
        Irving.  Deckert yes.  Dienel, yes, although there may be
        a tenuousness about the contact.  It was one of the ones
        I mentioned.  Felderer on page 143.  Rudiger Hess
        I mentioned but I think only in passing, at the bottom of
        that page.  Gottfried Kussel in the middle of the next page.
   MR IRVING:  Philipp.
   MR RAMPTON:  Karl Philipp on page 145.  Ernst Otto or it may be
        Otto Ernst Remer at the bottom of 145.  I do not remember
        whether I asked about Jurgen Rieger.  He was mentioned by
        the Professor in evidence.  Then we get to page 148 where
        we find Staglich, Swierczek, Walendy, and over the page
        the Worches.  I do not think I mentioned Ingrid Weckert.
        I am not much interested in her.
   MR IRVING:  Thomas Wulff.
   MR RAMPTON:  I did not mention him, the Professor did.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That, I think, may be quite a useful exercise.
   MR IRVING:  As long I am not penalised for not cross-examining
        on others.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You will not be.
   MR RAMPTON:  Can I say something else as well?  Mr Irving is
        not going to be penalised, or I am not going to attempt to
        get your Lordship to penalise him, for not having put

.          P-160



        this, that or the other contradiction about this, that or
        the other figure.  Where, however, the central case, as in
        some of the historical stuff, is not dealt with, I think
        I am entitled to make the assumption, maybe a provisional
        assumption or a rebuttable assumption, that the case is
        not really contested.  For example, Mr Irving has already
        said that he accepts that he had a long, or whatever the
        word is, association with Althans and that Gunter Deckert
        was a friend of his.  Now, if there is total silence, for
        example, in relation to the Worches, then I shall draw conclusions.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I agree with that and I think, Mr Irving,
        that you can take it that I will only concern myself with
        the alleged association you have with the individuals
        whose names we have just gone through, and with any
        organizations which it can be shown by the Defendants
        those individuals are directly connected with.
   MR IRVING:  I was about to mention the organizations, my Lord,
        because we have looked at individuals, but I am also
        accused of associating with organisations, both in Germany
        and elsewhere.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Only through these individuals, I think it is
        fair to say.
   MR RAMPTON:  And this is Germany only at the moment.  The other
        people that have come have drifted in through, well,
        Zundel is actually a bit more than the side of the

.          P-161



        picture; other people have come from France, Spain,
        Austria and America, and they of course do count in their
        own landscaped.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  There are only about four altogether.
   MR RAMPTON:  But Zundel is separate.  He must not be
        forgotten.  He after all was the cause of Mr Leuchter's
        martyrdom in Toronto.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think a list would be helpful.  We have it
        on the transcript, Mr Rampton, at some stage, in fact
        I think overnight, if you would, a list of those things,
        plus any non-Germans.
   MR RAMPTON:  All right.
   MR IRVING:  I will cross-examine just on those tomorrow, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  I do not think, well, I do not know.  I do not say
        any more about that at the moment.  We will see.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, certainly.  I am encouraging you I think
        to make a start, if you would, this evening.
   MR IRVING:  Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have a bit more time.
   MR RAMPTON:  If Mr Irving is in difficulty, there are some
        things I should like to mention while he finds his place,
        as it were.  I now have the disk of the Eichmann memoirs,
        which I will hand to Mr Irving at the close of play, but
        on this condition for the time being.  The copyright in

.          P-162



        this version belongs to the Israeli Government.  They have
        consented that it should be used for the purposes of this
        case, but rather like the daily transcripts it cannot go
        on to Mr Irving's website.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not sure it is a question of copyright
        so far as I am concerned.  It is more a question of the
        implied obligation in relation to ----
   MR RAMPTON:  I have given them an undertaking personally that
        it will not be used for any purpose ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, but I think it is a confidentiality
        point so far as these court proceedings are concerned, and
        not a copyright point.
   MR RAMPTON:  Except that they have got the copyright on these.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sure they have, but I am not so much
        concerned with that as with the fact you are disclosing it
        and it this is therefore subject to the implied obligation.
   MR RAMPTON:  Not to use it for any other purpose.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  At all events, until it is used.
   MR RAMPTON:  It will become public knowledge in due course, in
        which case it can go on anybody's website, but for the
        present -- there are terrible lawyer words about
        undertakings being muttered in my ear.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  There is implied undertaking.
   MR RAMPTON:  Exactly.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  As I am sure you know.

.          P-163



   MR IRVING:  The implied undertaking evaporates.  Once it has
        been mentioned in open court, my Lord, the implied
        undertaking is destroyed.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I wondered whether that point would ----
   MR RAMPTON:  No.  No, that is completely wrong.  Mr Irving's
        law is pretty poor in many respects and it is completely
        wrong in this respect.  The implied undertaking lasts
        until the court has read the document or it has been read
        in court.
   MR IRVING:  Mentioned.
   MR RAMPTON:  No.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This is an argument that I am hoping I will
        not have to resolve, because I am not sure it is quite as
        simple as that.
   MR RAMPTON:  I will not hand it over without the undertaking.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, are you prepared to give me your
        undertaking?
   MR IRVING:  I will give the undertaking not to make any
        untoward use of it, yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, not good enough.  Are you prepared to
        give me your undertaking until we can resolve this
        question, and we can set aside a little time to argue it
        if needs be, that you will not make use of this tape you
        are being handed otherwise than for the purposes of these
        proceedings and, in particular, will not put it on your website?

.          P-164



   MR IRVING:  For the purposes of this litigation, indeed, my
        Lord, yes, I give the undertaking.
   MR RAMPTON:  Thank you very much.  What in fact the Israelis
        have told us is that the version which will be made
        available to the public will not be this electronic
        version; it will be a printed version.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, fine.  That can be handed over.
   MR RAMPTON:  Very well.
   MR IRVING:  Thank you.
   MR RAMPTON:  I think I am wrong about what I just said about
        the law.  My apologies to Mr Irving.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think you are wrong too, but I did not like
        to say so!
   MR IRVING:  So who was right then?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, you were, Mr Irving. It is an unusual
        and rather curious position, but I think you are right.
   MR IRVING:  I have been in trouble about this before, that is
        why I am familiar with it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Anyway, let us press on.  Can you make a
        start on what we have all agreed now is really the guts of
        Professor Funke's report?
   MR IRVING:  Yes.  I think I am right in saying, my Lord, there
        were actually three more names than those listed in their
        appendix.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  One is Zundel.  One is the Spaniard.
   A.   Verala.

.          P-165



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you.
   MR IRVING:  There is Michael Kuhnen.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Kuhnen is in the list already.
   MR IRVING:  He is not in the list.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  All right.
   MR IRVING:  Gary Lauck.
   A.   Lauck.
   MR RAMPTON:  I did not mention Lauck, but if Lauck is important
        let us have him.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You are going to get a list of names tomorrow morning.
   MR IRVING:  Is Dr Frey included in the list?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, Dr Frey was mentioned.  He is in a slightly
        different category because he is DVU, but the Professor
        has explained why he puts DVU in, what shall I call, a
        slightly milder version of the radically neo-Nazi, other people.
   MR IRVING:  Professor Funke, Dr Frey is the Chairman of the
        DVU, is he not?
   A.   Right.
   Q.   Is the DVU a democratically organized body?
   A.   No, not at all.
   Q.   Not at all?
   A.   Not at all to the gazettes, the law of the parties, that
        includes inner party democracy, democratic procedures
        within the party system.  This is ruled by special laws

.          P-166



        that are of interest in the public in these months in
        Germany.  So it is very clear what the law said, and it is
        very clear that the DVU in its internal organization
        failed to apply to this law.
   Q.   Yes, but of course the main established political parties
        also do not comply with a lot of the laws?
   A.   I alluded to that.
   Q.   Yes, Chancellor Kohl has been in trouble recently, has he
        not?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us move on.
   MR IRVING:  If I draw your attention to paragraph 3 ----
   A.   He is not the Chancellor any more.
   Q.   Ex-chancellor.  3.2.5, you refer to the disparagement of
        democratic institutions and persons, which is an element
        of right-wing extremism.
   A.   3?
   Q.   Page 22, I am over the page.  It is line 5.
   A.   Line 5.
   Q.   Am I right in saying, and this is confirmed by paragraph
        4.3.1 on page 46, that the DVU has fought countless
        election battles under the normal election rules, has it not?
   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is neither here nor there, Mr Irving.
        Come on.
   MR IRVING:  It has never resorted to violent or revolutionary

.          P-167



        means, has it?
   A.   Say it again?
   Q.   It has never resorted to violent or revolutionary means of
        conducting politics?
   A.   Not as the party, but in the party, as I said, there were
        leanings to skinheads, violent skinheads, there were
        leanings and associations and actions by DVU members to
        this kind of violence against foreigners.  There was this
        kind of support of the Wehrsportgruppe Hofmann, a very
        violent group in the early 80s or in the late 70s.
        Hofmann was then fined.  So not in the centre, they were
        very cautious to circumvent any illegalising procedures.
   Q.   Was politics for a time in Germany very violent when the
        East Germans Stazi were providing funds?
   A.   I do not know what time you are referring to.
   Q.   Well, were there violent demonstrations in Germany which
        required meetings to be protected?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving ----
   A.   What time are you referring to?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  --- I thought we had agreed we were going to
        get on to the positive case that is made against you, and
        discussing whether there was violence in German politics
        when the Stazi was financing it is, I think, just too
        nebulous for the purposes of these proceedings.

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