Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.10 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 MR IRVING: Another cut there. A. You see "Sieg Heil" shouting. Christian Worch is speaking. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is there much more of this? MR RAMPTON: That is about it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was not a criticism; it is just that I see the time. MR RAMPTON: No, I know. We can look at it again at the end of the case, if necessary. One sees what one sees and hears what one hears. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Five past two. (Luncheon Adjournment). (2.05 p.m.) MR RAMPTON: My examination in chief of Professor Funke has ended. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought it probably was, Mr Irving. < Cross-Examined by Mr Irving. MR IRVING: Professor Funke, good afternoon. Before we start looking at your report, I think it makes sense for me to take up some points of what has been said in the examination-in-chief while it is still fresh in our . P-85 memory, and particularly some of the things that we have seen on the videos. The very last video we saw was the events in Halle on November 9th 1991. Is that is correct? A. Yes. Q. Have you studied the events of that day in any particular detail, looked at the press clippings or other footage than we have seen on television? A. I tried the best I can. Q. Yes. Am I right in saying that the world's television news commentators were there, all the big names, Martin Bell, the equivalent of the German television stations were there? A. There was a lot of coverage about this demonstration, this event. Q. Are you familiar with the fact that German television newsreel teams, in order to spice the footage of what they are filming, sometimes bribe people in the audience to do illegal acts, committing illegal acts? A. I do not know about it. Q. Have you heard of episodes where, for example, a Frankfurt television producer was prosecuted for arranging for skinheads to give Hitler salutes? A. If you give me evidence, it would be fine to see it and to react on this. Q. That is a perfectly proper answer. A. If this is the case, of course it has to be criticised. . P-86 Q. Yes. Did you see on the footage that we just saw, when these irresponsible shouts from the audience of Siegheil, -- which is a Hitler salute, is it not? A. Yes. Q. Did you see me put up my hand to tell them to stop? A. Yes. At least, you did a kind of gesture, not instigating it but ---- Q. To indicate that it was not welcome? A. In a way, yes. I would say so. It is a guess, though, it is an interpretation, but definitely you did not ---- Q. I did not encourage it? A. -- go with these kind of shoutings at that given moment. Q. Did you hear from anyone, or did you see any other film footage which suggested that in the first part that was missing I had said to the audience, you are a predominantly youthful audience? A. Please repeat the question, if I may ask. Q. In the first passage that was omitted from that, did you see any other footage, or hear any tapes, or read any suggestions that in that part that was cut out, to which I drew his Lordship's attention, I said to the audience "You are young people" effectively? A. What I recall very vividly is that you referred to the future of Germany and alluding to these youngsters there, yes. Q. That I said "You are Germany's future"? . P-87 A. Something like this. Q. And that "No-one can accuse you of war crimes"? A. Something like this, but now we have to get your website on the desk so I can interpret it with you together. Q. Did you hear on the video that we saw me saying in German, as they gave the skinheads the Siegheil salute, did you hear me saying, "You should not be coming with the slogans of Germany's past"? A. Something like this sense. The complete wording I am not aware of. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Should not always be thinking about the past? MR IRVING: Well ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Same thing. MR IRVING: I was asking for the actual words that I used, which were, "You should not be using the slogans of the past when I have just described you as being Germany's future". Another couple of general questions. Did you see the pictures of me standing in my rain coat watching this crowd of people coming down the street? A. Yes. Q. Did you get the impression from my demeanour that I was overjoyed and very happy at what was going on? Or did I look rather -- would you describe me -- well, how would you describe me? I cannot lead. A. I cannot answer this question precisely, but maybe extend . P-88 to two or three further sentences that include my picture. That is that you came into the hall, as the video showed, the hotel hall, saw the people there, a lot of them who were then in the demonstration. You came supposedly with Uschi Worch. So you knew, Mr Irving, about the character of this whole event, as I said it just before the break. The Christian Worch and Uschi Worch groupings came into this demonstration. I would think that, because of this shouting throughout the demonstration -- your Lordship, you saw just a bit of it -- there was steadily this kind of "aus aus lande aus" shouting, again and again "Siegheil", not only at that point. THE INTERPRETER: Foreigners out. A. "Out out foreigners out", and this shouting alike, so the character of the demonstration would have been very clear for you. MR IRVING: Now my question again. Did I look shocked when I was standing there in my rain coat? A. I cannot say. I really cannot say. Q. Was I waving my arms enthusiastically, or was I standing there? A. You did not shout "Siegheil", and you did not make these gestures of the Nazi period. I did not see that. This is all what I can say. Q. This takes me to another question, which may well interest . P-89 his Lordship. Was there any manifestation of Holocaust denial on that day in Halle? Do you understand the question? A. To me? Excuse me. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, it was to you. A. Yes. I understood. MR IRVING: Or was it just -- A. There was a rousing speech afterwards, of too much Dienel. That was very, very aggressive and I have to recall -- maybe you will see the typewritten version or you will see the video. It was very aggressive against foreigners, but Holocaust denial things I did not hear. MR IRVING: Yes. This leads to another question. Were there any expressions of anti-Semitism during the functions or on the video tapes that you have seen of that particular function, not just xenophobia, not just "aus lande aus. A. I got your point. Q. Explicit anti-Semitism? Are these useful questions, my Lord? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Absolutely. MR IRVING: Yes. A. No, they were concentrated on this hatred against foreigners. Q. Did you see any pictures in that film footage we saw of me with this gentleman, Thomas Dienel, together? A. On the stage. . P-90 Q. Together? A. You know he was around. We have to look on the video. You know on the stage there were Christian Worch and you and ---- Q. It was the back of a lorry, in fact. A. Skinhead guys, so far as I know, of the region. Then you came before this both, you came and then you left. This is what I saw. You are right. Q. In fact, have you read my diary and do you get the impression from my diary in doing so that I arrived, I spoke and I left immediately and headed back to West Germany within ten minutes? A. I think you would not make it in ten minutes to West Germany. Q. Well, I stayed around for ten minutes to make my speech and left immediately. Was that the impression you got? Or did you get the impression that I stayed there the whole day, applauding every speaker? A. The diary shows no further inclination with the procedures afterwards. Q. The diary refers to my making a rabble rousing speech, does it not, which Mr Rampton read out this morning? A. So far as I recall, yes. Q. Have you seen any references in my diary to my making a rabble rousing speech to my third daughter, Paloma, when she misbehaved one day and I made a rabble rousing --- - . P-91 A. You have to give me evidence. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That I think I would not pursue as a question because it will involve about ten minutes of explanation. MR IRVING: Yes. I think I have established the main points. Just let me ask you once again. Do you specifically recall seeing any image of me on that film footage on the back of that truck next to or talking to Thomas Dienel? A. I did not see it on the video, no. Q. No. The Leuchter Congress, which is the film that was shown just before that, March 23rd 1991, his Lordship invited you not to translate what I said in my remarks, but would it be right to say that I just told the audience, "I have to tell you that I cannot tell you anything, the police have ruled that we cannot talk about history"? A. This is right. Q. Did I then continue to say that my topic was going to be a lecture on Winston Churchhill and the United States entry into World War II? Was that going to be the topic? A. Yes. Q. It was not going to be Holocaust denial or it was not going to be an anti-Semitic talk, to your knowledge? A. No. Q. The Munich lecture of April 1990, this was the Wahrheit Macht Frei lecture that we saw, the one that cost me so much, those few words, Wahrheit Macht Frei is "the truth . P-92 shall set you free". Is that an appropriate translation of that? A. I think so. Q. Is that not in fact a quotation from the Bible, the scriptures, from John 8.32? A. I do not know. I am not so Biblefest, as we say in German. THE INTERPRETER: Not as well versed in the Bible. MR IRVING: It had nothing to do with whatever private obsessions Mr Rampton may have with that phrase? It has nothing to do with anybody's -- in other words there are other possible explanations why that is a popular phrase in Germany? A. The question of Richard Rampton was quite valid. It came into my mind in the subconscious. Q. The resonance? A. The resonance and the reference to the Nazi period, because of the aggressive outlet of the whole event in April 90 as set out by Mr Althans in saying, this is the end of the defence revisionists and now we have to think reverse. THE INTERPRETER: We have to change our thinking. A. And then, according to the sense, for a new political revolution or the like. I have to find the exact quote. So there is a surrounding atmosphere that can lead to these kinds of sensitivity that can allude to this Nazi . P-93 period slogans. Q. Still dwelling on the Munich events, have you seen any reference in my diary to my criticising Althans for the appearance at that function? MR JUSTICE GRAY: For what at the function? MR IRVING: The appearance, the way it was staged, the staging of it. A. So far as I recall with respect to the 1st April '90 Congress, you said two things, except the skinheads and the flags, or so in your diary. Q. Yes. I did not like the skinheads and I did not like the flags and I told Althans that. A. Can I add something? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, do. I was just looking up the diary entry. A. Of course it is of interest to see you again meeting these skinheads in Halle and elsewhere. MR IRVING: Confronting them, or having them imposed upon me? Would that be the right way to say it? A. I cannot say yes to that.
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