Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day022.19 Last-Modified: 2000/07/24 Q.We have already seen on several occasions that the word "vernichtung" is not necessarily totally identical and equivalent to killing? . P-169 A.I think it means at this time in the war it is. I would like you to provide me with information that it is not in this context. It mostly is. "Vernichtung deutsche arbeit", there is no doubt what that means. They are to be worked to death. Tirak explains. He says: "The judicial system can only contribute in small measure to exterminating members of this race." He is talking about the ---- Q.Can you tell us what word was used for exterminating? A.It is "ausrotten". Q."Ausrotten". Are you going to accept that the word "ausrotten" is capable of all sorts, an entire spectrum of different shades of meaning? A.Do we want to talk about "ausrotten" now? Q.No. I am going to deal with the Germans on that who know German. A.I know German, Mr Irving, and I can tell you that by this time in October 1942 "ausrotten" means extermination. I would like to see documents where it does not from this period, and in this context, above all, that is what it means. I suppose the exact meaning is extirpation. But if you look ---- Q.Have you seen a document ---- A.If you look up in the Oxford English Dictionary you will find that extirpation means total destruction. Q.Have you seen a document from Himmler to Martin Bormann . P-170 dated February 1944 where Himmler is reporting on [German spoken] in which Himmler rights to Bormann saying: [German spoken]? A.Yes, but I think that depends on the context. Q.Ah. A.In this context it means extermination. It is quite clear. There is no doubt about it. Tirak is saying that. What else does he mean? Q.Can it not just equally mean that we are going to take these people out of society? A.No. They have already done that. Q.Can it not equally well mean that we are going to send off to slave labour camps where in fact 1,000 of them were shortly shipped? A.He says there is no sense in conserving such persons for years on end in German prisons and penitentiaries. Q.So we will send them off to work in slave labour camps until they drop? A.It is deliberate extermination of these people by giving them small rations and working them to death, such as happened in the concentration camp at Mounthausen which is the one mainly reserved for these people. Q.You then say the police can take their measures or their steps free of the threat of legal persecution and you assume that these measures, these steps are also going to be killing? . P-171 A.Yes. Q.At a time of grave manpower shortage in Germany they need the slave labour they can get? A.Yes. This is the time when the mass extermination of the Jews was at its height, some 20 thousand state prisoners were taken out of the prisons with a very elaborate and extremely well documented operation and handed over for killing through labour. One should not fall into the trap of supposing that the Nazi regime was a rational regime which devoted all its resources to winning the war. As I have already said, it regarded the war as a racial war in which the destruction, murder of the Jews and of other groups was part of the war effort. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we are going round and round. MR IRVING: We are, my Lord. We are not getting further. It is the meaning of words again which I am not going to deal with this witness on. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Please do not. For reference only, unless you want to pick it up, reference in the transcript that is, it is page 464 of the 1991 edition of Hitler's War. I am not encouraging anyone to go to that. MR IRVING: My Lord the next item in the expert report would be the Goebbels diary entry of March 27th 1942, but I propose putting the report aside for the remaining three quarters of an hour and looking just at the rest of the documents in the chain. Professor Evans, do you have this bundle? . P-172 A.Is this the green piece of paper? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we now, before forgetting to ask you this, decide where it goes? I think somebody said J2. Miss Rogers probably said J2, but I say again I have not got a J2. I have said that many times. MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship is in not in that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, Mr Rampton, but it does not help any of us. MS ROGERS: I am sorry about that, my Lord. I had always understood that your Lordship had a J1 and a J2. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. MS ROGERS: Because the documents which have been produced on a daily basis I had thought were being put into separate tabs in, essentially, the Claimants' files, J1 and J2. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, well, not as far as I know. MS ROGERS: If they are not, we can provide your Lordship with a file -- we can give you an empty file now and perhaps we will update it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That will do, except I probably ought to know what you have already put into J2. Anyway, can I have it for the moment? MS ROGERS: It will all be altogether, my Lord. MR IRVING: So the first one would be December 14th 1941, they are in roughly chronological order. A.Right. Q.Again this document is not strictly part of the chain, but . P-173 it is one that would probably be held against me, so I thought it would be not unfair to include it in this part. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which document are you going to? MR IRVING: December 14th, 1941. A.Rosenberg, yes. Q.I am not going to spend very much time on this document. Does your Lordship have the document? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. MR IRVING: Is this an aide memoir or note by Rosenberg having had a conversation with Hitler on December 14th 1941? A.Yes. Q.Professor, and what do you think is significant about this document in the context that we are talking about today, the Final Solution? A.Well, he has, Rosenberg has previously made a speech where he has referred rather openly to the extermination of the Jews. I am trying to find a reference to it in my report. I am leafing back. Then there is a declaration of war on America on 11th December, and then Hitler gave a speech to the Gauleiter on 12th December where he made it quite clear that the entry of the Americans into the war had altered things. He spoke in an unusually open fashion about his famous prophecy, the 30th January 1939, being fulfilled. The war, he said, the extermination of the Jews would happen if the world war broke out, now the . P-174 world war is there ---- MR IRVING: When did he say that, in 1939 or ---- A.That is right. Q.--- or on this occasion? A.He said -- the prophecy in 1939, he recalls that in his speech. Q.But in 1939 he said "vernichtung des Judentungs", did he not, that word again? A.No. We would have it look it up. I am not sure it is "des Judentungs". Q.Take it from me that he says "vernichtung". A.Well, I will not take it from you, no. I am lost in my report now, I am afraid. MR RAMPTON: If the witness is looking for the Hitler speech of 12th December 1941, it is on page 412 of his report. A.Thank you. I have just got there. MR RAMPTON: There is the Rosenberg reference as well. A.Yes, it is the Rosenberg reference there. MR IRVING: Yes. Basically ---- A.This is just after the ---- Q.Declaration of war. A.--- first killings in Chelmno, and there are, this is the annihilation, the vernichtung -- where are we? Q.The destruction of Jewry? A.This is right, this is the 12th December, and he says that the destruction of the Jews will, it will now happen . P-175 because it is the, because we have the war there. Then there is the discussion, and Rosenberg now meets who is responsible, the Minister responsible for the East, Eastern areas, and says, I mean, that is the context and he now says, "Well, I have discussed it with, on the Jewish question", he talks then about the New York Jews, and then he says, "I took the standpoint of not talking about the extirpation of Jewry", the "ausrotten des Judentungs". "The Fuhrer approved of this position and said, 'They had forced the war on us and they had brought destruction. It was no wonder if the consequences affected them first'." So that, in other words, "Judentung" there refers quite clearly to "the Jews" because he goes on to talk about "they", and the context of this is your claim that he is talking about the stamping out of Judaism I think is the phrase you use in your book. Q.Well, I was just asking you what inferences you would draw from this document? A.Well, the inference is that you have manipulated and falsified the document in your presentation of it, Mr Irving. Q.Well, I am asking you what inferences you will draw from the content of this document, rather than the way I have written about it in any way. A.The inference I would draw is that, the inference I would . P-176 draw are that Hitler is approving the notion, and Rosenberg together are discussing the killing, mass killing, of Jews, they think it is a good idea, but you have got to keep it quiet. Q.Rosenberg is informed, of course, of the killings on the Eastern Front? A.He knows what is going on, of course, yes. Q.He is informed because we have just read yesterday the letter to him on November 15th, a few pages earlier in this file, about seven pages earlier, from Lozer, who is the boss in Riga, who has asked him, "What are we supposed to be doing with the Jews? I cannot find anything in the brown file". Do you remember that one? A.Yes. Q.So there is no directives, even in mid November, and now here on December 14th they are talking vaguely about the extirpation of the Jews, but there is still nothing specific being written down by anybody, even at this time, even by Rosenburg who is writing a private diary, he does not say, "Well, the Fuhrer says he is fully aware of what is going on and says, 'Keep on doing what is being done in Riga'." Why does nobody write anything down explicitly, I guess, Professor, this is what I am asking. Perfectly? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought we had been through that, that is camouflage, is it not? A.Yes. . P-177 MR IRVING: Even in their own private diaries, my Lord, in their own private papers? MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have made that point, Mr Irving. I mean, I have the point. MR IRVING: I did say I was not going to spend very long on that document. I will ask, however, about documents which are not in this bundle. Are you familiar with the private diary of Otto Brottigan(?)? A.Yes. Q.Otto Brottigan was, I think, the liaison officer between Rosenberg and the German Army High Command? A.Yes. Q.Did Brottigan refer in September 1941 to a situation that had arisen because Stalin had rounded up all the so- called vulgar Germans and could they now not take reprisals on Jews? A.Yes. Q.What was Hitler's response to that? A.Can I see the document, please? I had better see it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where is the document? MR IRVING: It is not in any of the bundles. The witness has said he is familiar with the diary of Brottigan ---- A.Yes, but when we are going to discuss it in detail, I think I need to have it in front of me. MR IRVING: Did Hitler say, "Let us keep all these Jews alive as hostages to keep the Americans out of the war"? . P-178 A.I would need to see the document, I am afraid, Mr Irving. I do not mean to cause difficulties, but I really do find it very difficult to discuss these things without having it in front of me. Q.Can you, therefore, now -- we will abandon that. A.Is that a fair request, my Lord? Q.We will go on -- I just put to you the content of the diaries, but if you do not want to ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: I personally think that it is fair. MR IRVING: It is. MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have all been talking about context until we are blue in the face, and I think, you know, one is entitled to see the context.
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