Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day020.03
Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

   Q.   But you have here referred of course only to Professor
        Faurisson.  Does that imply that he was my only source of
        any change of mind or new direction of my thinking that
        I may have adopted?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  "Such as" are the words used.
   A.   "Such as", yes.  You were familiar with the brochure, Did
        6 million really die, by Richard Verul of the National

.          P-19

        Front published under the pseudonym of Richard Harwood.
   Q.   You are saying I am very familiar with it.  When did
        I become familiar with it?
   A.   You note in 1988 that you said in the Zundel trial in the
        evidence you gave over 90 per cent of the brochure is
        factually accurate.
   Q.   Have you also read in the diary that the Verul report was
        given to me to read one day before I gave evidence, and
        that I looked at it the same as you look at documents here
        in order to be able to form an opinion of it?
   A.   I am saying you read it, Mr Irving.
   Q.   Yes, but are you suggesting that I thought it out and read
        it and then used it as a basis for my arguments?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He cannot possibly answer that, can he?
   MR IRVING:  I mean, the allegation, the suggestion, the
        imputation, from the witness is that I have read it and
        used it as a source when, in fact, I read it as an expert
        witness has to read documents that are put to him.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You just said you were familiar with it,
        Mr Irving.
   MR IRVING:  I had sufficient familiarity with it on the basis
        of 24 hours study in order to be able answer questions as
        an expert witness.  This is the point I wish to put to
        him.  If the witness makes a statement like that, which is
        intended to create an impression, then I am surely
        entitled to rectify the impression.

.          P-20

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, you cannot ask him questions to which
        he obviously cannot possibly know the answer.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, he can because the reference to this
        particular report is in my diaries which he has just
        quoted from and it makes quite plain that the Verul(?)
        Report was submitted to me.  It was put to me by the
        Defence counsel to read in order that I could answer
        questions on it when I came into the box.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, what is the answer?
   A.   I am not sure what the question was, my Lord.
   MR IRVING:  Are you familiar with, have you read my diary
and
        do you accept that, in fact, the Verul report was put
to
        me purely for that purpose?
   A.   That is what your diary says.  I am familiar with the
        diary entry.  The fact is that you read the report and
you
        judged it 90 per cent correct.  Similarly, you are
        familiar with the work of another Holocaust denier,
        Dr Wilhelm Steglisch which you have commented on on a
        number of occasions.
   Q.   Notwithstanding your desire to move on to other
matters,
        can we deal with one thing at a time and say that a
number
        of documents have been put to you by me in the last
few
        days, is that is right?
   A.   That is right.
   Q.   Would you find it repugnant if people said you have
        relied on these documents that I have put to you and
that

.          P-21



        you have read these Irving documents and that,
        therefore  ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, please, come on.  It is just
        becoming unhelpful and argumentative.  Let us get on
to
        what matters.  I say that for, I should think, the
12th
        time.
   MR IRVING:  132, Professor, page 132, line 4.  I am afraid
        I have to demolish this witness in detail, my Lord.
It is
        the only way I can do it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, I am sorry, I am intervening
more
        than I want to, but I have told you before that on
        Auschwitz I do not regard Professor Evans as being, if
        I may say so, authoritative.  Therefore, you do not
have
        to ask interminable questions about Auschwitz.  What
        matters starts at about page 150, as I have said many
        times before.
   MR IRVING:  If I am accused of putting things into
documents
        which are not in the documents, this goes to the root
of
        one of the principal libels on my name, my Lord.  That
is
        in line 4.  That is why I will ask this witness now to
go
        to page 57 of the bundle and see the document to which
I
        am referring.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Page 54.
   MR IRVING:  Page 57.  Is this an invoice for the supply of
        Zyklon-B to Auschwitz concentration camp?
   A.   Yes, it appears to be.

.          P-22



   Q.   Do you in your report say:  "It makes no mention at
all of
        pest control"?
   A.   Yes, I do, yes.
   Q.   Would you now look at line 5 of the invoice, the typed
        portion?  Do you agree that it says:  "This material
was
        sent to Auschwitz Abteilung, Entwesung und" ----
   A.   Yes.  My mistake, Mr Irving.
   Q.   This is your mistake?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So, in other words, I did not fake and I did not
distort
        and I did not insert and I did not manipulate on that
        particular document?
   A.   Let me read the paragraph.  "The plates", we are still
on
        the plates of your Nuremberg book, and the caption
says:
         "Tonnes of Zyclon-B pellets, containing poisonous
        hydrogen cyanide, are shipped by the Degesch factory
to
        the Pest Control division of Auschwitz and other camps
        including Oraneinburg in 1944". The delivery note,
though,
        only concerns Auschwitz.  I agree I overlooked the
mention
        of the pest control in Auschwitz, but it does not
affect
        the other camps.
   Q.   It does not affects the other camp?  But that is not
the
        point I am making here.  It is just that once again I
have
        been accused of distorting and manipulating and you
have
        now admitted that you are wrong?
   A.   Well, no ----

.          P-23



   Q.   Just as on the Spectator letter and other things.
   A.   --- because you are illustrating, you have an
illustration
        there of a note to Auschwitz and you are making claims
on
        the basis of it about other camps.
   Q.   I am not going to put to you all the other invoices
which
        I have in the file which show deliveries to the other
        camps which makes the point.  But the point I am
making
        here, will you accept that, is purely that you wrongly
        accused me of mistranslating or distorting a document?
   A.   I do not think I wrongly -- and I admit I am wrong on
that
        point, yes.
   Q.   Thank you.
   A.   I have already admitted that.
   Q.   Footnote 60, very briefly, you reference there the
        Gerstein report.  Will you now accept that the
Gerstein
        report has been totally discredited by the people you
call
        the Holocaust deniers because of the figures and
ludicrous
        facts it contains?
   A.   No, I will not, no.  As I have said, I am not an
expert on
        this subject, but it is a report that is -- I will not
        accept simply on your word, that it has been
discredited.
   Q.   The next footnote, No. 61, you refer to an interview
        between me and Radio Ulster, but, unfortunately, is
not
        produced in any of the bundle of documents, so it is
        difficult for me to judge how accurate this is.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you help about that, Professor Evans?

.          P-24



   A.   I cannot, I am afraid.
   Q.   Do you know where the transcript is?
   A.   I am unable to locate it, but we can quite well
dispense
        with that.  There are plenty of other statements here
on
        which we can rely, as in the very next sentence:
"There
        were no gas chambers in Auschwitz" as you said on 5th
        March 1990.
   MR IRVING:  Are you familiar with the distinction between
        Auschwitz and Birkenhau?
   A.   I think we have been through this in this case, Mr
Irving,
        and that ----
   Q.   No, but I am asking you.  Are you familiar ----
   A.   It is generally understood that when one talks about
        Auschwitz, one talks about the whole complex of all
the
        various camps inside covered by the name of Auschwitz.
        When one talks about Birkenhau, that includes
Birkenhau.
   Q.   Have you been to Auschwitz?
   A.   I have not been to Auschwitz.
   Q.   So I cannot ask you and there is no point in my asking
you
        questions about that.  You refer on page 133 to the
shower
        baths?
   A.   I am not, really not an expert on this.  What I am
trying
        to do here is to assemble evidence that you have
denied
        that there are gas chambers, there were gas chambers
        in  ----
   Q.   I am placed at a disadvantage and I appreciate his

.          P-25



        Lordship's impatience with this procedure, but you
have
        rambled on for pages in your report about Auschwitz
and
        included numerous false statements and I am trying to
        proceed at speed, but every time I ask you you say you
are
        not an expert on this.
   A.   What I am trying to do here is to include and present
        numerous statements of yours to the effect that gas
        chambers were not used, did not exist, and so on, at
        Auschwitz and elsewhere.  I presented a substantial
number
        of these statements here.  I do not really propose to
read
        them out.
   Q.   Well, I am afraid you will have to do what I ask under
        cross-examination.  One of them is look at line 1 at
page
        134, please.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "On 8th November 1990 he", that is Irving, "repeated
the
        same claim to an audience in Toronto: 'The gas
chambers
        that are shown to the tourists in Auschwitz are
fakes'."
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Do you now agree that this is true?
   A.   It is true that you said that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do we have to go through this again?  You
say
        fake, Mr Rampton says reconstruction.  I have the
point.
   MR IRVING:  This is my way of now introducing a cardinal
        document which is on pages 59 and 60, my Lord, on
which
        I shall very definitely rely.  It is a visit by a very

.          P-26



        well-known French news magazine called L'Expresse on
the
        anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.  On page
60
        there is the admission that everything in it is fake,
and
        they do not know how to tell the tourists this.
   MR RAMPTON:  I really do not know where this is going.
This
        was not put to Professor van Pelt who made it
perfectly
        clear that the single gas chamber at Auschwitz (i),
        Sturmlager, is a post-war reconstruction and he
        explained  ----
   MR IRVING:  It is a postwar reconstruction.
   MR RAMPTON:  He explained how it had been done and that the
        beginning and the end of that story.  How Professor
Evans
        is expected to deal with this, I do not know.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The difficulty, as you know, is that one
does
        have the section on Auschwitz.  That is the problem.
   MR RAMPTON:  I know, but, as your Lordship knows, as I have
        shown your Lordship already and Mr Irving has been in
        court, again and again Mr Irving has referred to gas
        chambers in the plural, not just at Auschwitz but
        elsewhere.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, I just have never from the
word go
        understood the point that you make about these so-
called
        fake gas chambers.
   MR RAMPTON:  There are two points, my Lord.  First of all,
        Mr Rampton calls it a "reconstruction", I call it a
        "fake".   The second point is if I am accused of
having a

.          P-27



        criminal conviction in Germany, which is used against
me
        by the Defence, I am entitled to point out the
criminal
        conviction is for saying precisely this sentence and
it
        turns out to be true.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not remotely interested in your
criminal
        conviction in Germany.  I simply am not.
   MR IRVING:  I am indebted to your Lordship for saying that
        because the Defence has repeatedly referred to it ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am now going to rule that you get on.
        Please, Mr Irving, this is enough about Auschwitz.  I
just
        do not think that there is anything to be gained by
any
        further cross-examination on Auschwitz.  You have
spent a
        long time on it.
   MR IRVING:  Just about Auschwitz or about the Final
Solution,
        my Lord?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not stopping you on the Final
Solution.
   MR IRVING:  Page 134.  "Systematic nature of the
        extermination".  You take exception to my suggestion
that
        Jews were the victims of a large number of rather
        run-of-the-mill criminal elements, and I mention there
the
        Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians?
   A.   And Austrians.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   And Germans.
   Q.   Are you familiar with the report by Jan Karski who was
one
        of the first people to report on the Final Solution?

.          P-28



   A.   Not -- I am not, no.

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