The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day016.20

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day016.20
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  With these documents it is fairly
        straightforward because the footnote reference is at the
        bottom right hand corner of the page.  These are all
        Browning documents.  Therefore, if one uses the footnote
        reference, one can go straight to the relevant passage in
        Browning.  It is more difficult with the Evans
report but
        this is quite straightforward.  If one looks, one
        that it is footnote 28 in this particular case,
and one
        finds it therefore.  That is how I found it in
        One finds it then on page 11.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Longerich or Browning?
   MR RAMPTON:  No, Browning, my Lord.  Footnote 28
follows this
        sentence, "On a separate line for Jews executed is
        3,663,211", which is what the document says.

.          P-145

   A.   If I am not mistaken.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I must be being stupid.  You
have just
        referred me to footnote 28 in Browning.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, which is on page 11.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  How does that help me get an
   MR RAMPTON:  Because it is translated in part at
the top of the
        page, reports to the Fuhrer.
   A.   My Lord, I believe we have
moved on to a new document,
        which is the July 2nd.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is what I thought I was
asking about.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am so sorry, I thought we were
still in December
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No.  We have had quite a lot
of evidence
        about the July 2nd 1941 document, which is why I
said I
        really must see what is actually said.
   MR RAMPTON:  Browning, page 12.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Page 12?
   MR RAMPTON:  Your Lordship will find a cross-
reference index at
        the front of this bundle of Browning documents.
        single document that is referred to in the index
has its
        footnote number behind it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I follow that, but what I am
looking for is
        an English translation, and which I do not think
is an
        unreasonable request because this is a document
that is
        quite important.

.          P-146

   MR IRVING:  My Lord, while they are looking, I
hesitate to
        indulge in one-upmanship, but I have translated
the next
        document I am going to give to your Lordship.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That would be helpful.  This
does not apply
        to all documents.  I do not think I am being
        unreasonable.  Where it is quite important I think
I ought
        to be provided with an English text.
   MR IRVING:  I have also translated the Funfach
letters for your
        Lordship from the Dresden argument.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Wait until we get to the next
        because I really do want to find out where, if
anywhere, a
        document which I think both sides attach
importance to is
        to be found.  I am afraid I am not really
        the footnote cross-references.  Am I going to be
        with them or not?  That was a question.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am so sorry, I did not hear it as
a question.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I will say again.  I think
that the document
        of July 2nd 1941 is quite an important document.
I have
        seen extracts referred to in paragraph 421 of
Browning and
        I have seen a footnote in Browning but, as far as
I have
        been able to find out, there is only the German
text and
        I am suggesting that, if there is an English text,
I would
        like to see it.
   MR RAMPTON:  All that the experts feel is
important about this
        document is set out in their report.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I am not sure that can
be entirely

.          P-147

        right because we have had a great deal of evidence
        the witness about it which is not contained in the
        report.  That is not a criticism of the witness at
        but is this an important document?
   MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry.  I agree it is an
important document
        but I have to say only in the respects which the
        witnesses, both of them, Longerich and Browning,
        noticed in their reports, which to this effect, if
I have
        understood what this discussion is about, to this
        The hand of the SS was to be hidden in the
instigation of
        pogroms.  It is there, if I am on the right
   MR IRVING:  My Lord I will prepare a translation
of that
        document overnight, the relevant parts.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If you would.  It does not
appear that we are
        going to get it from the Defendants.
   MR RAMPTON:  I will do it, my Lord.  If it is a
document that
        it turns out we rely on for some purpose beyond
that which
        appears in the expert reports, of course, then we
        have it translated.  But if, for our purposes, it
        sufficiently represented and translated in the
        reports, then I do have to say we cannot go
through these
        bundles translating everything that anybody might
want to
        look at.  For one thing, it takes too long and for
        it is very expensive.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Why I am being provided with
wodges of paper
        consisting of pretty incomprehensible extracts,
often not

.          P-148

        giving any indication where they come from?  I
just do not
        follow the object of the exercise.
   MR RAMPTON:  When the expert reports were
prepared, we asked
        the experts, as one would expect, to prepare lists
        bundles of the sources for what they say.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This is what we have all
around the walls.
   MR RAMPTON:  That is what this is.  Should there
be some
        important document which requires to be translated
in full
        as we have done in some cases, why then we shall
do it.
        But I do not see this as being such a document for
        part ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.  We will
move on in that
   MR IRVING:  Witness, we were discussing the
question of whether
        the Nazis were just killing the able-bodied,
military aged
        Jews whom they captured or whether the killing was
        extended to include also the women and the
children.  We
        talked about a 50 year-old Jew as an example.  Can
I ask
        you to turn to -- there is a document dated August
        1941, which is referred to on page 15 of your
report.  It
        is footnote 42 is the document.
   A.   Footnote 42, yes.
   Q.   Page 20 of the little
bundle, apparently.
   MR RAMPTON:  Might I again, your Lordship,
intervene here to
        explain exactly what I mean -- I do not mean to be
        troublesome or difficult -- in relation to this

.          P-149

        I know this document, something about it.  It is
        well-described in Professor Browning's report,
what it
        is.  The only bit which actually really matters is
        piece of manuscript right at the end of the
document which
        appears on the its third page.
   MR IRVING:  Mr Rampton, do you mind if I tell
his Lordship what
        matters about the document.
   MR RAMPTON:  Well, if you want to tell his
Lordship ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, to be fair to him, I have
been being
        critical and he is just trying to be helpful and
show me
        what ----
   MR IRVING:  On its way to your Lordship is a
translation of the
        entire document.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am going to put that into
this tab of J.
        Do you include the manuscript, Mr Irving?
   MR IRVING:  Yes, that is the final paragraph on
the page.
   MR RAMPTON:  In that case, I think we should
have a copy of the
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Have you not got one?
   MR IRVING:  It was done at a relatively early
hour this morning
        and I am afraid ---
   MR RAMPTON:  That is not a criticism.  I think
we should have
        it is all I am saying.
   MR IRVING:  Yes, but I will refer to the
passages in the German
        text and ----

.          P-150

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think I am going to keep
this for the
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But we will read it out to
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, of course.
   MR IRVING:  Do you recognize this document?
   A.   I want to make sure we are
talking about the same one.
        This is the Stahlecker to Jager of August 6th
   Q.   August 6th 1941.
   A.   The [German - document not
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   Yes.  This is a document
that is Gerald Fleming sent me a
        copy of that he had gotten in Riga.
   Q.   In Riga.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, that is page 15, paragraph
4.2.6 of
        Professor Browning report.
   MR IRVING:  Are you familiar with an author Eser
   A.   Yes, the man who writes on
the Final Solution in Latvia,
        Andrew Eser-Guilis.
   Q.   This is his kind of area,
is it not?
   A.   It is an area he has
written a book on, yes.
   Q.   In this document, if I may
summarize in advance, is it
        correct to say that quite clearly the people who
        writing this draft are planning for the Jews to
survive in
        gettoes, August 6th 1941?
   A.   The civil administration
is preparing a set of guidelines

.          P-151

        that implies the ghettoization of Jews and that is
        which Stahlecker is objecting, that they should
not be
        dealt with here as in Poland, that here they are a
   Q.   Yes, and if you can turn
to page 2 of the document, the
        second line of the second paragraph, I will
translate it.
        Roughly it says:  "This draft evidently plans the
        suggested under paragraph 5 for the umsiedlung of
        Jews, the resettlement of the Jews, not as an
        step, but is to be regarded as a later, gradual
   A.   That is the civil
administration guidelines to which he is
        objecting, yes.
   Q.   And the idea is that they
are going to keep the Jews, if
        they fall into the Nazis hands, in separate camps,
        the sexes apart so they are not going to get --
they are
        not going to increase?  They are going to keep
them alive
        but so that they will gradually die out,
effectively, as a
        race.  This was the plan in that?
   A.   This is what he is
referring to as the civil
        administration guidelines that he is criticising,
        they envisage marking forced labour ghettoization
and he
        is telling Jager that these are not acceptable.
   Q.   And if you turn to the
final page, there are four
        proposals listed there, one of which, the first
one, is an
        almost 100 per cent immediate cleansing of the

.          P-152

        Ostland of the Jews?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The second proposal is
preventing them from procreating,
        from multiplying?
   A.   Correct.
   Q.   The third proposal is the
possibility of the intensive
        exploitation of Jewish manpower which, of course,
        cannot do if you are killing them.  And the fourth
        one  ----
   A.   You cannot do it by killing all, but you can do it if you
        separate out skilled workers and kill most.

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