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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day014.13

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day014.13
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   I do not mind, Mr Irving.  I want to finish this
        question before the adjournment.  You do not like what is
        coming, I know, but I am going to do it very, very quickly
        so that I get my question in:  "Because basically
        international news is a serious thing and I yearn for the
        old days of Lord Reith when the news reader on the BBC,
        which was the only channel in those times, wore a dinner
        jacket and bow tie and rose to the occasion.   On great
        State occasions, one had the satisfaction of knowing not
        only that the news reader wearing the dinner jacket and
        the bow tie -- on great State occasions I think it was
        even a white tie that was called for -- but you had the
        satisfaction of knowing that the gentleman behind the
        camera was also wearing a dinner jacket.  It gave a
        certain solid sense of satisfaction that all was well in
        the best", you should have said "all possible worlds" but
        it has got missed out, "but now we have women reading out

.          P-111

        news to us"?
   A.   "Now we have women reading out the news to us".
   Q.   Wait, Mr Irving, the good bit is coming. "If they could
        perhaps have their" ----
   A.   But this is setting the whole tone of it, you know, you
        are not enjoying this speech.
   Q.   "If they could perhaps have their own news which they were
        reading to us I suppose [Laughter], it would be very
        interesting.  [Good-natured female heckling]".  So far,
        Mr Irving, so good.  "For the time being, for a
        transitional period, I would be prepared to accept that
        the BBC should have a dinner-jacketed gentleman reading
        the important news to us, followed by a lady reading all
        the less important news, followed by Trevor McDonald
        giving us all the latest news about the muggings and the
        drug busts -  [rest lost in loud Laughter and Applause]".
        Are you not appalled by that?
   A.   Not in the least.  This is a funny after dinner speech in
        the spirit of any stand up comedian on the BBC.  We have
        heard exactly the same comedy from the end of the pier in
        Brighton.  It is exactly the same kind of speech, and if
        you find that -- even the black audience would not find
        something like offensive, believe me; and as for which of
        us two is the racist, I can only refer to the fact that I,
        unlike the members of the Defence team, employ ethnic
        minorities without the slightest hesitation ----

.          P-112

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, how many times do I need to tell
        you not to make that comment?  It is inappropriate, futile  ----
   A.   Well, if I am being accused of racism, my Lord, I think  ----
   Q.   --- and is doing your cause no good, I can assure you.
   A.   If I am being accused or racism, I think it is highly
        relevant to find out that I employ ethnic minorities
        without the slightest hesitation.
   Q.   Well, it is my view that counts and I do not think it is
        says, so please do not say it again?
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, what I would like to do with your
        Lordship's permission -- there is an awful lot of this --
        I have got a very little way, and your Lordship can
        understand one reason why that is so -- what I would like
        to do is at 2 o'clock -- it will take a little bit of time
        to set up -- is show a video of one of Mr Irving's
        speeches at Tampa, Florida, on 6th October 1995 at a
        gathering of something called the National Alliance.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right.  We will do that at 2 o'clock.

   (Luncheon adjournment until 2.00 p.m.)

   A.   May I first apologise for my unruly behaviour on the race
        matter.  I should not have kept making that point.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do not worry.  I do appreciate that it is
        quite stressful.  You have been being cross-examined for

.          P-113

        quite a long time, but I think it is better unsaid.
   A.   Secondly, in view of the fact that I was broadcasting to
        Australia at five this morning, may I sit during the film?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of course.  Sit any time during your evidence.
   MR RAMPTON:  I hope that goes for me too so far as the film is
        concerned.  My Lord, this is a video tape recording of a
        speech or talk, call it what one likes, by Mr Irving at
        Tampa, Florida, on 6th October 1995.  The transcript,
        I think, is K3, tab 20.  The plan is to do the beginning,
        and there is a specific reason for that, and then go to
        the section which your Lordship has in the extract at page page 14.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
   A.   My Lord, is there any reason why they are just showing
        this section and not the whole tape?
   MR RAMPTON:  I do not mind.  It takes an hour.  I have
        absolutely no views about that at all, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Why not watch the extract and then we can go
        on the written page to any other passage you want.  A.   Very well.
   MR RAMPTON:  If it makes Mr Irving uncomfortable, I would much rather ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am just concerned about time, Mr Irving.
        Explain to me why you want the whole thing shown.

.          P-114

   A.   Your Lordship will probably have glanced through it and
        you will have seen that----
   Q.   No, I have not, actually.
   A.   I am sorry.  In fact, I remarked to one of Mr Rampton's
        instructing solicitors as I came upstairs in the elevator
        that I was astonished that they had chosen this particular
        video tape because that is precisely the one that I would
        have wanted shown.  I had apprehended they were going to
        show the whole tape and not just a fragment.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I see.  You think this in a way gives the
        flavour of the sort of speeches you were making?
   A.   Unless they are intending showing lots of extracts from
        lots of speeches, then I would prefer one entire to be
        shown rather than just one fragment taken out of context.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If Mr Irving puts it like that, that in a way
        this would be a good sample speech, I am inclined to think
        he is entitled to have the whole thing played.
   MR RAMPTON:  I quite agree.  I have no feelings about that.

                  Video is shown.

             Break in video at this point.
   A.   I then leave the room so there is not much point in
        showing the rest of it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think there may be.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.

                   (Video continued).

.          P-115

   MR RAMPTON:  There is a small break.
   A.   That is when I then leave the room.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think I know what the point is.
   MR RAMPTON:  If your Lordship has the point in the transcript,
        then we do not need to see the tape because it is at the
        beginning of the transcript as well as the end.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We are stopping?
   MR RAMPTON:  That will do, if your Lordship is satisfied that
        what I need is in the transcript.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You have laid the ground for a question.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  Mr Irving, do you remember that earlier on
        in this case we asked you some written questions, or we
        requested some information?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And do you remember that we asked you questions about the
        national alliance?
   A.   Very clearly.  I remember very clearly what answer I gave too.
   Q.   I asked you a number of questions, general and specific,
        about the national alliance.  You gave some replies.  My
        Lord, these are in bundle A, tab 8.  Mr Irving should be
        handed bundle A, and he should turn to tab 8 where he gave
        some answers.  If turn it to the seventh page -- have you
        got your answers, Mr Irving -- it is a document which
        calls itself "some answers".
   A.   Yes.

.          P-116

   Q.   If you turn to page 7 of those answers, you will find a
        page which begins with the answer number ----
   A.   Tab 9, that is correct.
   MR RAMPTON:  Tab 9. That is my fault.  23 and 25 are the
        relevant answers.  You said this, Mr Irving: "I have no
        association with the body known to the Defendants as the
        National Alliance as such or whatsoever."
   A.   What number are you?
   Q.   Number 23. "I have no association with the body known to
        the Defendants as the National Alliance as such or whatsoever".
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "I cannot rule out the members of that organization which
        I take to be a legal organization in the United States.
        They have attended functions at which I spoke.
        Accordingly I have no knowledge of, and I take no interest
        in what materials it publishes or distributes. I have no
        knowledge whatsoever of the character of the National
        Alliance other than what is now claimed by the witnesses
        for the Defendants nor of the publications which it is
        alleged to publish or advertise"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "I do not agree that I have spoken at any National
        Alliance meetings.  It might be that on occasions a
        gentleman who was a member of the National Alliance

.          P-117

        offered to organize a lecture for me.  In other words he
        undertook to find a suitable room but I then circulated my
        entire local mailing list to provide an audience.  No
        doubt he brought his friends as well.  It will be seen
        that in all these photographs of these events which were
        produced at trial there is no kind of National Alliance
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Mr Irving, that was a false answer, was it not?
   A.   Both answers are absolutely true.  I draw your attention
        to the fact that your expert witness, Professor Evans,
        having read my entire diaries from start to finish, has
        lamented the fact that he has found not one single
        reference to the National Alliance.  Am I correct?
   Q.   I have no idea what Professor Evans ----
   A.   I am telling you.  That is the answer to your question.
   Q.   It is not the answer to my question by any manner of
        means, Mr Irving.  We are going to show a film of you in a
        moment wearing a National Alliance -- never mind that.
        Look at the beginning of the tab?
   A.   Do you wish to have that part struck off the record?
   Q.   No.  It is a misunderstanding by me.  I do not have things
        struck off the record.  That happens in the United States, Mr Irving.
   A.   There is a fragment of a sentence there about my wearing

.          P-118

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  On we go.  On we go.
   MR RAMPTON:  On we go, Mr Irving.  Tab 20, please, of K3, which
        is the transcript of this last film we have been watching.
   A.   Oh, yes.
   Q.   Right at the beginning.  Look at the beginning of it
        please, Mr Irving.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "The first transcribed speech.  Ladies and gentlemen, on
        behalf of the National Alliance and National Vanguard
        Books, I would like to proudly welcome Mr David Irving".
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You were not in the room at the time, of course?
   A.   I was there at the time.
   Q.   On behalf of the National Alliance?
   A.   It would have meant nothing whatsoever to me.  There is no
        reason at all why I should have remembered that phrase.
        I have no idea what the National Alliance is.  I still do
        not know what it is.  If somebody introducing me says I am
        here on behalf of some legion of something or some
        alliance of something, it is instantly forgotten by me two
        minutes later.  I was there at a meeting which had been
        organized with my mailing list and the evidence for that
        is in the following paragraph:  "Ladies and gentlemen,
        there are few familiar faces here this evening".  In other
        words, all my own friends off my own mailing list.

.          P-119

   Q.   It would not be right to suggest that, including this
        meeting, you have attended no less than eight National
        Alliance events between 1990 and 1998?
   A.   I have attended no events that have been organized, to my
        knowledge, as National Alliance events and, had I attended
        such events, then it would have been described as such in
        my private diaries, quite clearly.
   Q.   What do you think that was?
   A.   This was a function which had been organized by an
        individual for me to attend and to which I had invited my
        entire Florida mailing list.
   Q.   "On behalf of the National Alliance and National Vanguard
        Books I would like to proudly welcome Mr David Irving"?
   A.   He had a table there no doubt on which he was selling
        books.  That was no doubt the return that he got.  But
        I have no idea what the National Alliance is and
        I supposed 90 per cent of the people in this audience also
        have no idea what the National Alliance is.

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