Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day013.09 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 MR RAMPTON: No, it does not, I agree. I do not know . P-74 actually. It is referred to in a book by somebody called Bergander in 1977. A. I do not think there is a genuine one, document No. 47. The only one I have seen was a fake which was produced by the Goebbels Propaganda Ministry for propaganda purposes. MR RAMPTON: Yes, which had an extra 0 added to all its figures, did it not? A. It multiplied everything by an order of magnitude, yes. Q. If you turn to page 11, my Lord, of the table, it says, basing herself on Professor Evans, Miss Rogers writes this: "1977, the real TB 47 comes to light. It is discovered by Bergander who found a reservist Ehrlich who had a copy cited at page 261 of Bergander, etc. Evans describes Bergander as the most authoritative work", and so on and so forth. I dare say if you have not read Bergander, Mr Irving (and I know you do not read other people's books) you will not be conscious of ---- A. Well, Gutz Bergander was a very good friend of mine -- he still is a very good friend of mine. Q. Have you read this 1977 book of his? A. I have not, no. Q. Then the answer to my question was, "You are quite right, I do not read even my friend's books and so I am not familiar with this document". Is that right? A. Well, I gave him a great deal of assistance when he was writing his book, but I had no reason to read his book . P-75 because I was no longer writing about Dresden. Q. Whether or not he has found the real one, and I expect you to accept that he has ---- A. That is the first I have heard of it actually at this moment there is supposed to have been a real one. Q. Yes. But the interesting thing about the real one, as you will see in a moment, is that its numbers coincide more or less ---- A. Well, we have not been shown it. I cannot comment on that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 67, tab 2. A. It was in his book, right. Is this from a printed book? MR RAMPTON: No, this is from Bergander. MR JUSTICE GRAY: So we have not got it? MR RAMPTON: We have not got the document, no. A. Are you referring to the handwritten page 67 or typed? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Handwritten. That looks like Bergander. MR RAMPTON: It does. A. I cannot see any reference to the Tagesbefehl. It is T-A-G-E-S B-E-F-E-H-L. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 235. I am probably wrong, but there is a reference to "befehl" there. No, I think it is a different "befehl". MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I can tell your Lordship this, that on page 553, 552 and 53, Professor Evans reports the discovery of the real TB 47 by Bergander through Ehrlich . P-76 and at paragraph 2 on page 553 he says this: "In this new, authentic Ehrlich copy the death figure was put at 20,204, the expected dead at 25,000 and the number cremated at 6,865", which are exactly the same figures as in the fake or forged TB 47 except for the missing 0 at the end. A. In fact, I calculated that myself when I rewrote the Dresden book three or four years ago. I spotted the fact that somebody had clearly juggled the figures, but this is literally the first I ever heard of the existence of a real Tagesbefehl. Q. And the reference given for that is Bergander at page 261. A. Well, the reason I mention that this is the first I have heard of it is I see that here Professor Evans in his infinite wisdom is saying, "despite having been finally forced to disown", what by? I never knew there was a real one. I have always recognized the other one was fake. Q. You have not always recognized it, Mr Irving. We are coming back to that. A. Well, ever since -- the last 20 or 30 years I recognized it was fake because the figures were so totally inflated. Q. All I am asking you to accept -- you can look at it in Bergander, it is on page 77 of tab 2 of the file. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that is right. MR RAMPTON: All I am asking you to accept, because it does . P-77 save such a lot of time -- there is no trap in it -- is that the real Bergander (sic) was found and that, as one would expect, its figures are short by a 0. MR JUSTICE GRAY: You said the real Bergander, you mean the real Tagesbefehl? MR RAMPTON: I mean the real Tagesbefehl, sorry, yes. A. I shall get on the phone to Mr Bergander tonight and ask him if he knows about this. Q. Well, it is in his book at page 261. A. I shall conceal the fact I did not read his book. Q. You can tell him that you were forced to read it in court if you want? A. I beg your pardon? Q. You can tell him you were forced to read it in court. A. Well, we cannot read it in court because you have not got it. You have only got his book. We have got his --- - Q. As I say, his book? A. Oh, the book, yes, but I would have liked to have seen the document itself which he says he has. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, so would I. I wonder where it is? MR RAMPTON: I do not know. Perhaps Mr Bergander has it. I do not know. A. Perhaps I can get him to fax to me. Q. But it really does not matter. A. Well, it does because -- well, I am not going to presuppose what you were going to say. . P-78 Q. I am only asking you to accept that the figures for deaths and expected deaths in the real version are 20,000 and 25,000, respectively? A. Yes. That closely tallies with the Police Chief's report of that date. Q. Exactly. A. Yes. Q. That is all I was driving at. A. And I reached this deduction independently of all this about five years ago when I rewrote my Dresden book. Q. That is as may be. In fact, document -- I will just read out the figures and then we can get on -- the final report of 15th March 1945 which I think you have got, or have seen? A. You call it the final report? Q. It is called the final report of the Dresden Police sent to you on 27th May 1966 ---- A. My Lord, I am bit unhappy -- oh, it is called "Flusmeldung", right? Q. I do not know. A. 15th March. Q. Which should be pages 17 of tab 2 in this file. A. That is correct, yes. It is the final report on the four air raids. Q. Yes, good. The figures given in that document, I am told by Professor Evans (but you dispute it, if you wish) are . P-79 18,735 dead, 212 badly wounded and quite a lot more people slighted wounded, is that right? It is no good -- I cannot read it, so... A. Well, of course, the Police Chief actually does not spell it out quite like that. He says, "18,000 bodies so far found", I believe, which is a subtle difference. Q. Sure, and we will come to that along down the road, I am sure, Mr Irving. The situation report 1404 of 22nd March 1945? A. Yes. Q. Situation report gives figures of, I think, and it may be there is a misprint because it is odd that it is 18,375 and not 735. Maybe they have been adjusted. 25,000 total expected and 35,000 missing, is that right? A. Yes. The interesting thing was that the one document was supplied to me in 1966 by the Soviet Authorities and simultaneously in the same mail I received the other document from the West German Authorities. They had found it in the German Finance Ministry files. Q. Middle to end of May 1966, is that right? A. Yes, this is three years after I published my book. Q. I want to go back, if I may, because again I am not interested for this purpose -- I know you will get angry about it, but I am not -- I am not interested in what actually happened at Dresden or in the total numbers, though that, as it has in other areas of the case, may . P-80 emerge ---- A. I remember you said, "So what?" Q. Yes, because that is not what this case is about, Mr Irving. You accuse people too readily of a kind of callousness, I do believe. We are investigating your bona fides as an historian and nothing more than that. A. Well, you were the one who said, "So what?" ---- Q. Yes, because the reference to Dresden was irrelevant - --- A. --- about the way we killed 100,000 people in one night. Q. --- to your reference to Auschwitz. Now, just keep our eye on the ball, if we may. Would you turn to page 3 of this tabular document, please? Is it right that in November 1964 you were in Dresden and you visited somebody called Hahn, is that right? A. Walter Hahn. Q. Yes. Is it right that when you were in the sitting room Hahn and a man called Walter Lange, who is the director of the Dresden City Archive, began to discuss the implications of the 200,000 figure, yes? A. Well, if you have a source for that, yes. Q. I have your own words. A. A diary or? Q. Page 517 of Evans. When you came back from this visit, you wrote a long memorandum, did you not? It is in the file. A. Yes. . P-81 Q. It is difficult to read because it is a photograph of a negative or whatever. A. Yes. Q. I would much prefer to read it from Evans' text. "'Lange had not realized that it gave this figure'", that is the so-call TB 47, "'and I at once realised why Hahn had seemed reluctant it show it to me (in fact he had had that probably since 1950 or so, yet he had not shown it to me on any of my previous visits in 1962 and 1963)'". Then comes this: "'As soon as Lange began to expostulate on this document being a patent forgery, Hahn became very worried'". What sort of man is or was Lange, Mr Irving? A. He was a short, bald headed gentleman with a prominent Communist Party badge in his lapel. Q. What sort of a man is or was Professor Seydewitz? A. He was the former Mayor of Dresden and, obviously, a Communist Party official. Q. Both of those, I think I am right, cast doubt on, if not the authenticity of the document, certainly the reliability of the figure, did they not? A. I am not sure that Walter Lange did, but Max Seydewitz had published his own book on air raids on Dresden -- a very good book -- and he produced different figures. Q. You knew from the beginning -- for you this is the beginning -- that there was grave doubt about the figures given in this document? . P-82 A. Yes. Q. That the figure for dead was 202,000 plus and the figure for expected death, again a forgery, was 250,000, was it not? A. Yes. Q. You knew from this time and said you thought the document was genuine, but that the 200,000 figure might be suspect? A. Yes. Q. You said that on a number of occasions. If we turn over to page 4 of the table, you said it to ---- A. Of the table? Q. --- to Mr McLachlan, the Editor of the Sunday Telegraph: "It remains to be established whether" -- this is the second box, 26th November '64 -- "the 200,000 number it contains is equally genuine and if not why not". A. Well, yes, that sentence is quoted. Q. And on 28th of November 1964 you wrote to a Herr Struss, Deiter Struss, I think his name was? A. My German publisher. Q. Yes? A. Yes, my German publisher. Q. Yes, your German publisher, referring to the death figure of 202,040 people. You said: "This information is naturally sensational and because it comes from the then Deputy Chief Medical Officer, Dr Max Funfack, there is no doubt about the authenticity of the document." Now, did . P-83 you in that letter to Herr Struss express any doubt about the figure? A. Without seeing these two letters, it is difficult to see ---- Q. I quite share that, if I may say so. A. --- exactly what the context these sentences are taken out of. Q. Page 37 of tab 2. It is probably written in German, I should think, since it is from you to a German gentleman. It is page 37 and 8. It is a letter from you to Herr Dr Struss. Can I ask you to read it to yourself? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where is the relevant bit, Mr Rampton, do you know? MR RAMPTON: It is right in the first paragraph, my Lord. A. They do not seem to be irreconcilable. In the previous letter on page 36, I say, "Having now examined the document minutely myself, I am satisfied of its authenticity. It remains to be established whether the 200,000 number it contains is equally genuine and if not why not". MR RAMPTON: That is what you said on 26th November ---- A. And two days later I then write to Dr Struss.
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